tangent vs secant

[Texas Solo]

Can someone please explain the difference between a tangent ogive and a secant ogive?
I may try some different bullets, but I need a bullet with the ogive as far forward as possible (.223 Wylde chamber)
Currently using Berger 80gr and have very little bullet in the case neck when loading to .005" off the lands (which is where I get great results)

[LongRange]

http://www.accurateshooter.com/balli...ogive-bullets/

[stomp442]

Sounds like you need to switch to a tangent ogive. Try a Sierra Match King.

[Texas Solo]

Thanks for the link LR. That explains what I needed to know.
Stomp...I just happened to have some 80 SMK, but they come up .032 LONGER OAL than the Berger VLD. That means I have even LESS bullet in the case.
I need to get measurements from an 80gr A-Max, Lapua Scenar (77gr) and a 80gr Nosler CC. Nobody seems to give a description of their ogive profiles in their product description (except berger, who's VLD is obviously a secant) (A Max looks to be the same)

Can anyone remember the company that offers single bullets for sale? I searched Google but can't find it.

[LongRange]

Brownels and cabelas sell starter paks...I think 11 bullets.

[stomp442]

Sounded to me like you wanted less bullet in the case so that you could get closer to the lands. With an 80gr bullet you should have plenty left in the case and still be at or near the lands.

[Texas Solo]

Sounded to me like you wanted less bullet in the case so that you could get closer to the lands. With an 80gr bullet you should have plenty left in the case and still be at or near the lands.

I can reach the lands with 80gr VLD.....but I only have a tiny bit of bullet left in the case neck. I need MORE bullet in the case neck without coming off the lands.

The way I'm seeing it, that means a longer (90gr ?) bullet or a different ogive that will touch the lands sooner.

You would think I'd have plenty of bullet left in the case with an 80gr loaded to the lands, but remember I have a Wylde chamber (and I think a long one at that)

[FW Conch]

Have you done the "Berger Test" to see if your barrel will shoot with the pills off the lands ?

[Texas Solo]

Have you done the "Berger Test" to see if your barrel will shoot with the pills off the lands ?

Yup. That solution would have been too easy. I shot at my usual -.005, then -.010, -.015, and -.020. It got progressively worse.

It's not possible to have .020" throat erosion in a .223 with varget....is it?

[JW]

Yup. That solution would have been too easy. I shot at my usual -.005, then -.010, -.015, and -.020. It got progressively worse.

Try the bergers seated a lot deeper that .020
Berger has a recommended seat depth sequence to find out if yours will shoot off the lands
I'm talking maybe .150 off
Ill try to find the article and post it

Found it: http://www.bergerbullets.com/vld-making-shoot/

[FW Conch]

JW speaks the truth. I have a 30/06 that shoots it's best load .160" OTL's.

[bdz65]

With my model 11 223, if I want to achieve .200" bullet in the neck, with a typical 55 grain tipped bullet, then I will have approximately .100" jump. I cannot load any bullet to the lands and still have the round fit the magazine.

[Texas Solo]

With my model 11 223, if I want to achieve .200" bullet in the neck, with a typical 55 grain tipped bullet, then I will have approximately .100" jump. I cannot load any bullet to the lands and still have the round fit the magazine.

That's all not material to my situation.
I shoot 80gr Berger VLD, not 55's.
I shoot a Wylde chamber, not .223Rem
I shoot match, single feed. mag length not required.

Chamber was inspected by gunsmith. GTG. I simply won't have much bullet in case neck.
I did compare a 90 SMK, specs were the same +/- .005". The SMK ogive is further back on the bullet than the Berger, so OAL had to be increased to reach the lands, thus negating any advantage of the longer 90gr. bullet.

[bdz65]

That's all not material to my situation.
I shoot 80gr Berger VLD, not 55's.
I shoot a Wylde chamber, not .223Rem
I shoot match, single feed. mag length not required.

You are absolutely right.

I was running with.

JW speaks the truth. I have a 30/06 that shoots it's best load .160" OTL's.

Shooting .100" OTL with my 223 yields great accuracy with the Hornady 55 grain V-Max. Shooting approximately .120" OTL with the 53 grain V-Max not so much. One big difference, what I think holds the secret is the ogive of these two bullets.

[JW]

Try the vlds jumped like the article I posted above
I think you will come up with something you will be happy with

to give you an idea of what I'm talking about, I just put a 223 wylde together and loading 80 SMK
I wrote down the length to lands wrong and instead of seating .010 off the lands they were actually .100 off the lands ( a whole other story how that happened)
Run the load test with different powder charges as usual
One load delivered a .080 3 shot group
Now I am testing at my usual .005 to .020 off the lands - .312 group on one to this point

I am beginning to believe there are 2 lengths on seating depth that will provide good results just as there is a high and low node on charge weight

I know this is a SMK I am talking about not berger but I shared because I do shoot bergers and most are jammed or at the lands and I had the mindset they all needed to be that way
Not so in my experience
Jack

[LongRange]

Texas Solo...try loading 10 rounds with the bullets your using somewhere in between the two lower lines in this pic(crappy pic and drawing but you get the idea)if your trying to get to or into the lands and the bullet is seated ABOVE the top line(or above the half way mark on the neck)that is most likely the problem...dont worry so much about the ogive to lands measurement for this test just worry about having the OD(.224 ?)of the bullet in the neck or the bullet seated 3/4s(minimum)of the way into the neck...which ever comes first.