Im trying to get a handle on density altitude and how and why I enter it in to my ballistics program. I use strelock pro. Not the free one. The pro version seems pretty comprehensive. I think it is in the same ball park as jbm but slightly inferior in some ways. Either way it was and still is the best calculator that I can get on my android. I understand the relevance as far as getting the true "thickness, or thinness' of the air to shoot through and its effects on drop table via retained velocity. Now it gets into the numbers to be entered that makes me unsure of which ones to enter and which ones to tell it to use. I guess I am going to hope someone here is using this same program and can just tell me to punch in this and that and your good to go. But I will lay huge odds its not going to be that simple. There is one section that asks if you want to take current conditions in to account and you enter altitude, barometric pressure, temp. I dont know at this point if it uses any of that information to calculate density altitude? Because the altitude I enter is standard altitude. Then it will ask if I want it to get conditions from station condition. Now does this mean the numbers it receive at this point is going to be the corrected for Density altitude i.e. not sea level. And when it asks if I want it to calculate pressure based on altitude, is it expecting me to input the corrected station pressure altitude? If the signal is clear it can connect with station and get all vital information. But again I dont know if these numbers are already corrected or will the formula take them into account and correct come ups when calculating long shots.
I hope some one understood my questions.
I think I found the answer to my own question.
You need temp. pressure. and humidity.
The key is if pressure is already corrected for sea level or not.
If already corrected then corresponding altitude is needed.
If its absolute pressure then no need for altitude reading.
also when you import current weather it automatically makes pressure absolute and altitude N/A....the problem with imported weather is(at least where im at)most of the weather towers are on the mountain tops.
I thought since I am getting some good load data now. Its time to record good MV's and make up some accurate drop charts as next step so understanding the inputs would be vital to accurate drop chart and my understanding was unclear on this topic. Then next would be creating a specific data book for each long range rifle. A guy over at the hide helped me tailor data books specific to my needs and scopes. Real great guy.
It seems a bit of a big to-do over nothing really. Now that I know the single value that is the key. With the internet, I wouldn't see a reason why getting the altitude for an area you are going to and having a specific drop chart prepared would be any problem. Having the kestrel with barometer/altimeter would be handy if there was no internet connection.
You are beating your head against a brick wall, and the result will be a sore head.
Im not saying not to try getting as close as possible with your data. But what i am saying
you will never find the perfect answer. Where i hunt the altitude alone can vary 1000' depending on location.
We leave ammo and guns in vehicles for the whole season. Temp variances in the ammo alone cause changes in data info.
Im well aware for some people first round hits are a form of bragging rites and thats fine. But a miss is still a miss regardless
of an undetected tree branch, wind condition, or an error in data entry. I would agree that the best data can be gotten by entering the current conditions
including shot angle for each shot. But count on killing very few deer unless you do it on the first shot or your willing to throw the iphone
overboard after a miss. Keep your eye on the ball, not the iphone.
Buck it isn't a hunting issue at all. I never shoot beyond point blank range when hunting. Not saying I am against it, there is just not any open land on my lease past 500 yards and I only take shots on deer inside 300 in the field and normally inside bow range in the woods. Kind of seems way overkill to hit a deer with a 300 h&h magnum at 30 yrds. My target guns are not my hunting guns although I have taken one deer with them. My go to hunting rifle is the pre mentioned Holand and Holand and it doesn't have exposed turrets just leopold vx-3 so I don't make any quick adjustments while hunting other than holding at the top edge of the vital zone.
Buck can I surmise that you don't shoot competitively ? I have not at this point either but I want to understand to my fullest capabilities the factors that effect external ballistics. If im going to make a drop chart, there is no good reason to make one that is inaccurate .
edit: Knowingly make inaccurate. My software, like many take into account differing temperatures and it can be "trued" by entering variables over time. but again I have to start somewhere.
Last edited by doctnj; 01-18-2016 at 12:26 PM.
No i dont shoot competitavly. Im well aware that today there are many disiplines of competetive shooting.
Im not poo pooing the idea of a good chart either, and i feel i have good ones for all my guns.
But also realize that good today might not be as good tomorrow or even later today.
If your shooting in a match where sighters arent permitted, then certainly
the most accurate information is valuable. And since everybody else has to live by those rules also you might
have an advantage with better data. But aside from a very few instances where data is very important, sighter
shots are the best source of up to date information. And a miss should be looked upon as a sighter shot.
In fact in some disiplines such as hunter class benchrest, you can go back to the sighter as often as you like during the match.
Tell you what, put 20 minits of elevation on any standard magnum rifle you want and see where the shot lands at 1000 yds.
Forget the chart, just dial up 20 minits. Of coarse there will be varieation between guns, but you will see the hit or your spotter will.
That should all any good shooter needs to make hay on the next shot or two.
Read the book of the ultimate sniper. Forget the hollywood version, read what the man actually said and you will see no mention of any charts or precise dialing.
He mostly used a 400 yd zero with his favorite gun the 300 win mag and match ammo. From there he used the reticle to hold up or down on the body depending on distance,
for the vast majority of his kills. So my question is, why then do wanna be snipers who are facing zero danger to their own life, insist on perfect dialing
for first round hits? Its very important to those who buy into the idea and thats fine, but lets call it what it actually is.
Also realise that i have no time for do it alone shooters while long range hunting.
Hey buck. Pull up prs competition on you tube. You will see what Im talking about. Most stations that are shot seldom have multiple shots at same distance and you are against the clock. Most guys carry come ups for their rifles, some even broken down for the particular station. So you either shoot and dial and shoot and dial or shoot hold, shoot hold and a miss will cost point, time, or most times both. The average target size it 2 or 3 moa at many stations so cleaning a station demands one shot hits. Period.
Do what makes you happy doctnj. An open mind is a bright mind. Try it....learn from it.....get better at it. Im sure you,ll learn whats important and whats not "as important".
Personally?...... I find the process of ballistic calculating to be fun and challenging.
I get a kick out of seeing my end results after ballistic calculations. More so because I use my own formulas for poi and moa adjustment on my scope.
The further out you go, the more relative altitude/baro and temps are. (along with a few other factors)
Go for it dude.......................
Life is tuff.....its even tuffer when your stupid
{John Wayne}
Doctnj. Don't let the grumpy old men around here ruffle your feathers😁 yobuck only compares things to long range hunting. It's what he does and has been doing for an unimaginable amount of time😋
Back to the Topic. I know a lot of guys that swear by DA. I haven't used it because I haven't seen it be more accurate than station weather for me.
A lot of my buddies also use the applied ballistics kestrel units though, so I believe that would 've a lot more accurate since they tune a lot of factors based on data collected over time.
I've shot a PRS match and shoot those style of matches on a monthly basis. I'd recommend picking up one of Bryan litz's books on long range shooting books. Not be a use I think he's got the best approach, but I think he compiles the information very well.
Well i said im aware of that type of competition. I can certainly understand for that purpose, acurate dialing is very important.Originally Posted by doctnj
But thats the exception, not the general rule. But again, whatever it takes to float somebody elses boat is fine with me.
Most of the spots we hunt are the same spots year after year after year. We have the distances to various spots like various rocks marked in a book.
We might have a dozen distances marked for the same location. No need for a rangefinder, or even a chart for that mater at those places.
I killed my only PA black bear at one of those spots by using the book to get the approximate range of 700 yds. It was a first round hit which had i known,
would have been the only shot necessary.
Realize also that not very many years ago this conversation wouldnt even be taking place would it? The new 6.5x300 weatherby cartridge
which as far as i know is yet to be released, was the most popular long range cartridge on the planet 50 years ago.
My first ever (click chart) as they were then referred to, was for a 6.5x300 weatherby. Get this, i never owned a 6.5x300 weatherby. It was given to me by a friend in the early 70s who
did have one, for use with my new 7x300 weatherby. He said here use this it will get you pretty close, and it did get me very close.
The chart is still varnished onto my old bench and still works for quite a few different guns.
10 years ago not only was there no internet as we know it, or iphones, but maybe one shooter in a hundred had a chronagraph.
Also get this, in the 80s you werent dialing anyway unless you had a scope with a name like Unertle. All the great ones of today didnt even exist, of if they did like Leupld
for example, you couldnt dial them because they had no dials. Thanks to the internet, things have changed rapidly, in that many more people are aware or are becoming
aware of whats possible. And new ways of doing old things are cropping up also.
I also shoot tactical PRS style matches regularly. I use 'Shooter' as my app currently, and have been for quite a while. The only environmentals I ever input are temp and DA. It's just easy to work with. I have a custom user screen set up on the Kestrel with Temp, DA, and Wind. Everything I need on one screen. The Kestrel pulls DA from the sensors in real time, so it really doesn't matter how the Kestrel is configured. If you're using Station Pressure or Baro, it needs to be set up a certain way to make sure you're actually getting the reading you're intending on getting.
I do have Brian's cds "getting shots on target", or paper, or something like that. Im in the middle of the second disk and have been for weeks. It seems every computer I own or have access to decided to not be able to see the disk anymore. Weird. So Ill have to break down and use the single dvd player that I own and so far I havent taken the time. I have the second disk on my desk at work because I tried my laptop at the office and same thing. The dvd player on there quit seeing anything on the disc. I wish his books were on amazon. I would load it up on my phone and can read anytime I have to sit and wait. That is how I read most every book. I did however just order a new book about wind calls. I forget the title however I will look it up if anyone is interested. It was suggested reading by someone somewhere. Its only 150 pages but only centers around reading the wind in various ways. And since most misses are due to poor wind calls I thought I would read it. I know it takes a lot of practice and I will give plenty in that regard. I just think I would do well to know what Im looking for going in.
And yes buck the internet is an awesome tool. Otherwise I would have to travel to a long distance range where people shoot these competitions, about 3 hours for me, and look for that guy thats banging steel far out and ask him questions. Now I can do that in my underwear drinking coffee lol. tmi
The sport is exploding so fast I cant wait to participate. My wife keeps saying she is going to be so intimidated. But I told her even if I were to come in dead last the thought of moving around and shooting from all different positions and gaining experience and getting to watch good shooters do it well is worth the price of admission. Also she sees how helpful everyone here seems to be and I think its the sport all together. We are going to attend a long range shooting class this summer even though Ill be shooting a match or two before then, hopefully.
We are doing the class to see if there are any major flaws in our techniques. My wife doesnt practice as much as I do but she has natural skills I just dont have. She is hard to beat. My goal is to be regularly shooting matches in 2017. I have a body building competition that same summer so after that is over I should have more time to pour into the sport.
you a body builder doc?
i was into power lifting and strongman for most of my life...also into shooting as well but really got serious about long range right around the end of 07 very beginning of 08...in july of 07 i blew my left shoulder out..wish i had a cool lifting story for it but it was none weight related LOL...i was back in 09 and was training for for a masters strongman comp in Nor Cal in Jan of 2011 and tore the IT band in my left leg...i got past that and was pretty much ready for the masters comp and my step son got sick...long story short he ended up having a heart transplant so i never made the comp and havent REALLY trained since...i think about it a lot though LOL!!
this is me in december 2010...5'11" 271lbs and 18% body fat...and sorry for the off topic just figured your a fellow meat head LOL...
Wow very nice. Yeah had a complete rupture of right Achilles that took me out for quite a while. Still off balance there in calves. Had small tear on rear head of tricept a year ago. With my back starting to really act up I think my time is coming to an end in the sport. I was set to go this summer but I would be at the end of my age group in the 40-49 category so Im going to wait and try and win the 50 age group in 2017. Im in the gym at least 5 days a week. Ive got a new trainer that just moved here from california that is working me 3 of the 5 days. If my body doesnt give out between now and then I plan on the win in the masters level. I struggle to bulk up. Im oly carrying 10% body fat right now and thats a lot for me. Its hard to eat enough. In fact I need to get off here and go eat as we speak. Wow, small world.
i was eating 8000 to 8200cals a day when i trained hard and was basically in a food coma LOL....good luck with your comp and stay healthy...5 days a week is a lot for an old guy but im sure you know that...ive trained several ppl over the years including a couple of women...never for body building per say but for mass...DC training will pack on mass faster than any other training ive tried or used.
Good thing it dosent require strong bodies to lift bolts and pull triggers lol. Remember one thing about people who are writing books on shooting doc,
and that includes Litz.( They earn money by doing it.) How many books need to be written by wind reading experts before we can
all be good at (reading) wind? Will somebody please promise to wake me up when that mystery is finally solved?
One would think that in the about 50 years the original 1000 yd benchrest club at Williamsport has been in existance, and with all the very
good shooters who have competed there, including a few authors, we would have a better understanding of wind as it relates to shooting long range.
Ill tell you whats changed at least there, and that is shooters have learned to shoot much faster, and the equiptment they use is geared toward that.
Every so often, somebody wins the lottery, but never a second time.
Its probably somehow interconnected with climate change. And with all the great minds working on that, were sure to have the answers very soon.
Algore will no doubt be the one to solve that issue also.
I forgot what it was called. Gotcha
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