Zeroing vortex viper pst and reticle travle

[doctnj]

I am pretty sure I have my vipers set up right but after getting my new weaver in it gave me room for questions. In the weaver, once zeroed, you can crank the turret to the bottom so you can use all of the internal adjustment. If I have read correctly, this is the same with the gen 2's. What I simply have done with the vipers is mount, level, zero, jump the zero..... done. At this point you stack in the shims and you wind up with what ever amount of travel happens to be left right? Like most of mine are at the second hashmark from the bottom. So that is just lost adjustment? I would need 40 moa rail to use more of it?

I am ok with that. Just like I said, if weaver had the ebr reticle at their price point, I would have ALL weaver's on my rifles. That said, I dont want to miss anything and loose out on any additional adjustment.

Even if vortex charged an extra couple hundred and put the gen 2 turret configuration on the viper 30mm just so the shooter could take advantage of all the adjustment, it would sell like crazy. I know I for one would pay extra to retro fit!

[yobuck]

Youve lost me a little Doc and ive had limited experience with Vortex. But as a rule you just zero the gun at your preferred distance.
Once zeroed, loosen the turret cap by loosening the screws or however, then rotate the cap only till it lines up on zero and retighten the screws.
The shims are how Vortex has the zero stop setup if you want to use them. If not it dosent matter but you wont have the zero stop feature.
Yes the 2 lines showing below the knob indicate distance off the bottom of the adjustment range in your case. The only way to get use of it is as you mentioned,
by getting a different taper on the base.
The zero stop is not really important for those who know where zero is. Especially when zero is very close to the bottom. You can just count the remaining clicks till
it bottoms out and just scratch that information into the stock or something. lol
Remember your only ever going to get the ammount of elevation the scope adjustment gives you. The tapered base simply allows for getting more of it rather than it being wasted by being below the zero setting. Of coarse you can always use the reticle for holding over if you run out of adjustment.

[Rob01]

I think you are a little confused. The Razor II uses the center erector to zero when the knob is set at 0 and locked. The PST you are doing right. It zeros as a lot of scopes do as a scope can only have as much travel as is in the scope and that is why people use MOA canted bases to take advantage of the most elevation in the scope. As long as you have enough up for the load and distance you are using then you are fine and the unused down elevation isn;t an issue.

I am not sure about how the weaver works but once zeroed they must either have a way disconnecting the knob from the erector as you can't just dial the knob and not get travel.

Here is a video explaining the Razor II knob
http://www.vortexoptics.com/video/ho...-tec_zero_stop

[doctnj]

Yes it would be confusing if you don't know what I am trying to describe. Weaver's smart zero allows you to zero your rifle then screw down the internal adjustment knob leaving the center of the reticle where it is there by giving the user the entire amount of vertical adjustment that comes with a 34 mm tube up from their zero'd position. So just for explanation lets say that you have 65 mils of total vertical adjustment in a 34mm tube. Most scopes on a 20 moa base, after jumping the zero, allow you to use 2/3s of that adjustment. By being able to bottom out the adjustment screw while holding the reticles on the zero you have for your rifle, you then get the entire
65mils of adjustment up from your zero. You can and would be suggested that you bottom out a few .1 mil below zero by turning the turret down a few clicks then loosening the set screws and spinning down the adjustment screw to bottom, tightening the set screws.. When you now line up your zero hashmarks you actually have a few clicks below zero before you get to your hard bottom stop.

That probably confused you even more. Just suffice it to say that they have it set up so you get to keep all of your adjustment or most of it really.

[doctnj]

Ok yes I watched the gen 2 video. Its exactly like that for the weaver. I was just double checking to see that I wasn't missing anything on the pst line. There you basically just get what ever is left after obtaining zero. And I may be mis understanding the others thinking you get to keep all of the adjustment but that is the way I have read it.

[yobuck]

So if im interpeting you correctly, there is no need for a tapered base with that scope?
You can get all the adjustment within after zeroing the gun?
Sounds like a good feature to me and no doubt would be coppied by others.

[Rob01]

You still need a tapered base to get the most out of the elevation range which is a set amount. It's a double system. You still have elevation travel left under the spot you are zeroed but the zero stop stops you or you are allowed to readjust the outer dial to its lowest point. You aren't bottoming out the erector but the click system to where the erector is set. The erector has to stay set where you set it to zero. You move it you aren't zeroed. But you can have the separate clicks which is its own system but you will still top out when the erector tops out.

[doctnj]

After I get it mounted and zeroed I'll know for sure. Waiting on rings. I can't get anyone at weaver on the phone and their explanation on the website is vague. I am just repeating what I read on another site that did a comparison.

[doctnj]

Ok weaver called me back and explained it. I'll write it up after lunch
The reason I didn't know is the paperwork in the box covered the 30 mm scope. 5 -20. Not the 6-30. Wierd.

It's better than normal for sure

[doctnj]

I had a big explanation and my computer locked up. Here is a short version, for this example we will use total 80 moa travel:

Normal scope centered zero on 20 moa rail 40moa(half of total vertical travel)+20moa(rail)=60moa of up adjustment left.

Weaver is locked down to be bottomed out then mounted on 20 moa rail. At this point it is raised up off of bottom just enough to zero the scope. So for the next example we will say that it was needed to go up 10 moa to hit bull eye.

20moa(rail)+70moa(adjustment remaining after bulleye)=90moa of up adjustment left

You get the point.

[Rob01]

Sorry but that doesn't make sense as you can't have more elevation than where you start. You have 80 and add a 20 moa base all it does is reposition the 80 as you stated. It doesn't give you 100. You won't have more than 80.

There must have been something lost in the translation. What is the exact Weaver scope you have?

[Rob01]

I just did a quick search and it appears to be a mechanical zero stop. Just a hard stop at he bottom so you know you are back at your zero. Basically a mechanical version of the shims in the pst. It doesn't set the erector anywhere other than where you are zeroed and you still have down elevation but you cant feel it as the zero stop stops you. A zero stop or as they call it smart zero is a good feature to have though.

http://www.tactical-life.com/gear/we...30-x-56-at-nra

[doctnj]

It's not about the numbers per say. It's about starting you zeroing process at the bottom or the center. You flat out get left with more adjustment starting out at the bottom. That is how the tech explained it to me. The numbers were just chosen to make the idea clear. But in the case that it is mounted bottomed out, it does add the twenty on to the 80. I'll find out for sure this weekend hopefully. You can't argue with reality.

[Rob01]

I am not new to scopes and what you are explaining is not how it works. You will never get 20 added to 80. Never. You will only have the 80 available and it gets re positioned in the scope when a base is added. You can be bottomed out and have 80 but you better hope the stars align and that's where your zero is. The smart zero from all I am finding is just a mechanical zero stop. Go play with it this weekend. It might zero differently but in the end you have 80 MOA to adjust through the scope and a hard stop zero stop. Don't assume that is the bottom of your elevation either because it probably won't be. It's just a stop.

[doctnj]

When starting the zeroing process in the center w/o a rail. We basically split the total adjustment in half. So an 80moa total, we loose 40 moa to the down side and have 40 left to go up. With a 20 moa rail we get back 20 moa of the down and convert it to up same with 40. With the 40 we would have the entire 80 moa to go up with. Now if you take all of that 80 moa, because the scope is all the way to the bottom end of its adjustment it has 80 moa to come up right? You take that bottomed out 80 and place it on a 20 moa scope it GAINS 20 additional moa. However this is just hypothetical as far as a scope that is zeroed at 100 yrds. If it was zeroed say at 600 yrds then yes maybe you could have the entire 100 moa to play with from there. I hope that made it more clear. We are so used to starting in the middle that it is difficult to understand.

[Rob01]

I am talking the internal mechanics of the scope on a 20 MOA base. Not about adding extra slope set up as some ELR guys do by adding extreme external angles so they are zeroed out at around 1000 and then still have the internal elevation available. In those set ups they aren't zeroing at 100 yards. But also in those cases you do not have 100 MOA in the scope. You still only have the 80 MOA of internal mechanical elevation. You are adding more external so it's basically a 60 MOA base from your example which will not let you zero at 100 and does not make the scope internally have 100 MOA.

I know what you are trying to explain but you need to realize in that scope you will only have 80 MOA of travel.

I also have a call into Weaver to ask about the smart zero.

[doctnj]

We are saying the same thing I think, just not understanding. The horse is dead.

[yobuck]

I stopped reading about 5 posts back. Let us know how this all works out.
Meanwhile ive still got my mind wrapped around what i originaly said lol.

[doctnj]

I will for sure. I think where the confusion between our definitions are where we are referencing. The scope in reference to itself will never have more adjustment then it comes with. But in relation to the action with a rail there becomes more vertical adjustment available due to the increased angle. It is a simple concept but completely different to what I and many others are used to. I mean who bottoms out there scope before mounting? It will be interesting. Normally the optical quality suffers when you are at the edge of adjustment but the fact that you have to dial up to get to bull eye it takes it off the bottom edge leaving more available adjustment then one mounted in center. That is the take home here.

[yobuck]

I am talking the internal mechanics of the scope on a 20 MOA base. Not about adding extra slope set up as some ELR guys do by adding extreme external angles so they are zeroed out at around 1000 and then still have the internal elevation available. In those set ups they aren't zeroing at 100 yards. But also in those cases you do not have 100 MOA in the scope. You still only have the 80 MOA of internal mechanical elevation. You are adding more external so it's basically a 60 MOA base from your example which will not let you zero at 100 and does not make the scope internally have 100 MOA.

I know what you are trying to explain but you need to realize in that scope you will only have 80 MOA of travel.

I also have a call into Weaver to ask about the smart zero.

While your at it, ask if we have to be smart to understand it. lol

[upSLIDEdown]

There is no possible way to get more travel than your scope has in it's internal adjustment, period.

I own 2 PSTs and Gen 1 Razor and shoot regularly out past 1k.

For round numbers, we'll use your 80moa example. The scope has 80moa of total travel. In a perfect world, that means you have 40 up and 40 down. Adding the 20moa base would give you 60 up and 20 down. That's it. There's no way to increase that. There's no way to disengage the turret from the erector to 'get all 80moa of travel' back. If there were, I'm pretty sure everyone's scopes would do it, and that would elminate the need for an angled base.

My Razor is on my 338 Edge. The reason I picked it is because of the massive amount of travel it has. It has just over 120moa of total travel. I put a 60moa base on it, hoping it would still zero at 100. If not, I was prepared to use a hold-under for my zero, as I wanted all the travel I could get out of it, planning to shoot out past 2000 yards. My zero is almost at the bottom of the erector, so I have all the travel up from that.

[yobuck]

What would happen if


What would happen (IF) you held the bottom line or dot or whatever your reticle has, on the target, and then dialed off that from your zero setting?
How many mils/minits would the scope have then?
Is there any rule that says you cant pick and choose what you use as an aiming reference and where you dial from?
It does help if you know where you would be for distance by just using a particulr reference for aiming.
Think of it not as a holdover, but simply dialing from the max holdover. lol
So why not utilize the reticle to its fullest extent by knowing the distances each of those marks fall on?
Then just fine tune by dialing rather than all dialing? This is where the focal plane argument would have some impact.

[upSLIDEdown]

I'd guess you'd want to use the top line, then you'd have everything under that as a holdover at the end of the travel... You're losing that off the bat going say, 5 mils up, but gaining it back with the end holdover having a total of say, 15 mils total (5 above and 10 below center), so you'd net a total of 10 mils extra? Maybe? lol I don't know, and it's too late to wrap my head around at this point.

[yobuck]

I'd guess you'd want to use the top line, then you'd have everything under that as a holdover at the end of the travel... You're losing that off the bat going say, 5 mils up, but gaining it back with the end holdover having a total of say, 15 mils total (5 above and 10 below center), so you'd net a total of 10 mils extra? Maybe? lol I don't know, and it's too late to wrap my head around at this point.

Forget about above center, put it out of your mind.
Zero the gun as always by using the center or main cross hair.
Then hold the bottom mark on the target at 100 yds and shoot.
Your shot will be high, how much will determine about where it lands at distance.
So lets assume it would be 1000 yds for sake of this conversation.
That means your on at 1000 yds by using the bottom mark and you havent used any clicks to get there.
So instead of using up your clicks first then holding over, your using the holdover first and (precisly) dialing from there
because you still have all your clicks left.
Take that to the bank that it works, and with a ffp scope you could pick the power to do it on.
So now how far can you dial a scope?

[doctnj]

Slide! What happens when you mount the scope with the reticle cranked all the way to the bottom. The only way you can go is UP!!!! Not 40/40 That is the old mount in the center deal. Im talking about just what they told me over the phone that you crank it all the way down so there is no more down left in it. THEN mount it that way. At this very point there is (for the sake of argument) only 80 up available. You cannot go down any more... Not even one click.
WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU PUT THAT SCOPE, IN THAT CONDITION, ON A 20MOA RAIL? Don't mean to yell but I am trying to emphasize that at that very moment before you touch your turret you indeed have all internal 80 available plus the 20 of the rail. Wow this is truly a mind bending concept.

I will admit I may be so screwed up in my mind. But it is what they told me and the more I thought about what I just explained the more it made complete sense. My rings should be here today so if im not too tired after the gym after work I will mount it up the way they explained and see for myself.

I have to say this really is a great conversation.