New 6.5 ocw results

[doctnj]

Well Dan, a couple days ago I had a solid answer for that question..NO...After all I have a custom 6.5 CM being built for just that purpose. And a few days ago this rifle was unique. One of the original 16 produced by savage but never put into production. I paid a stiff fee to own one of them. I wanted to shoot it a few times determining that it was a laser of a rifle and find the best loads to use in it with confirmation and once I did I was to lock it away in the safe. My goal was to keep it completely stock as sold from the factory. But after learning from the shot 2016 savage will be putting into full production the 10ba in 6.5 CM. Although the chassis system looks nothing like the one mine is currently setting in. I see some good points with the new chassis system and if I can get a different adjustable prs magpul but stock on it, then I would even be up for swaping out the original chassis for the new one that has come out.. See I now have lost all value in keeping it as it was built for the most part with the up and coming CM coming out. So to answer you question Dan......MAYBE.... I mean i will have a custom CM that should be sufficient for competition but its nice to have a back up. The new stock is carbon fiber and weighs in at a little over 2 lbs. My savage is a proven shooter at a fast load and a well less fast load. And I still have to test them at distance to see how they perform in various winds. Once I combine all of this information I can then make an informed decission if this rifle is on par with those used in competition. I am planning on putting on an sss trigger right away now. And I would guess dropping it into one of savage arms new chassis system when they become available.

So the same is true for the 260 at the end of testing I will be aware of a high node and a moderate node. Which one I settle on is very much open for discussion. But there is still many more tests to run.

[doctnj]

As far as shot placement goes I kind of dropped the ball today. Ill post a couple pics after I analyze them with on target. You can see by the numbers that the 42.8 performed really well. I seated the bullets .002 deeper which brought them to .030 off the lands. That extra depth was to try and free up the mag feed just a slight amount. And as always I saw for myself today that there indeed is a significant POI shift with the v3 connected. I shot some verification strings then a string with the v3 to catch the MV's and it caused at least a half moa shift. The only really sticky bolt was on a case that I had marked as a loose primer pocket to be discarded after I shot it today. Im going to next switch from the cheep winchester brass to Hornady and reload the 42.8 and start shooting it. I didnt really notice any real signs of pressure per say. I think some of the difficulties with my bolt seem sporadic and may just need to clean the cocking mechanism in the bolt itself. I can see this action getting sent off for truing in the near future. Both loads opened up today at 100 as well as 300 but I suspect a lot of it was me. On the 300 yrd target, it was pretty hard to see the half inch square due to the great deal of mirage. It was just a faint tinge of color in the center of the cross hairs that was shifting all over the place.



6.5 CM 39.5gr H4350
140 gr Berger cci 200
Trim to: 1.910
CBTO- 2.198 (30 off)


Series,12, Shots:, 5
Min,2660, Max,2695
Avg,2681 ,S-D,14.2
ES , 35




Series,Shot,Speed
12, 1, 2694, ft/s
12, 2, 2679, ft/s
12, 3, 2695, ft/s
12, 4, 2679, ft/s
12, 5, 2660, ft/s
----,----,----,----




6.5 CM 42.8Gr H4350
140 gr Berger cci 200
Trim to: 1.910
CBTO- 2.198 (30 off)


Series,13, Shots:, 5
Min,2860, Max,2874
Avg,2867 ,S-D, 6.2
ES , 14


Series,Shot,Speed
13, 1, 2874, ft/s
13, 2, 2860, ft/s
13, 3, 2861, ft/s
13, 4, 2871, ft/s
13, 5, 2870, ft/s
----,----,----,----

[LongRange]

DO NOT ASSUME the 42.8g load will be the same in the hornady brass!!

you are already at moderately high pressure with the win brass which will most likely have MORE internal case capacity than the hornady brass AND YOU NEED TO CHECK the internal capacity BEFORE loading and shooting 42.8g in the hornady brass.

at 42.8gs you are right at 5% OVER book max according to both hornady and bergers MAX loads...as far as velocities(according to both)you are right at 9% over MAX which i personally dont think will cause a catastrophic failure but your brass will most likely be short lived and if the hornady brass has an internal capacity of 1 to 2 grains LESS that will put you some where around 7 to 9% over book max.

also if running over book maxes and you switch powder lots you need to drop a couple of grains and work back up...i even check my velocities when i switch jugs with the same lot numbers as ive had increased speeds within the same lots but i think its due more to powder WEIGHT/VOLUME not a huge difference in BURN RATE.
also be careful if your compressing that H4350 because it gets squirrely when compressed.

and dont be afraid to back the hybrids off the lands some more...as i told you im at .035 off in my 260 and they shoot....plus it seems that backing off a small amount made a difference in your rifle.

[doctnj]

An update on the brass situation. I have almost 150 cases that have been sitting with primers waiting for me to figure things out. Come to find out what I thought was Hornady is still all Winchester. I guess I havent even gotten into the Hornady brass yet. There is someone looking out for me. Well and you too! I was really thinking I was going to observe more pressure signs than I did. Like swipe marks and heavy bolt lift. Amazingly had none of that. But let me say this. I tore my bolt apart last night and gave it a good scrub and put it back together and it runs like a new machine. NOW i want to shoot some of the faster loads so any stiff lift I can attribute to the round and not the roughness in the bolt. When I tore it down there were shiny spots and in one spot it was almost a gouge mark on the cocking ramp. Not good! There is no wonder Im having sporadic feelings of stiff bolt lift. Something is causing it to get out of alignment and dig in about 2/3's of the way up the ramp.

Im glad you warned me about the Hornady switch as well. I do have Hornady brass but havent gotten to it yet and doesnt look like I will any time soon. But I will heed that warning when I do.

After I get the new trigger installed and run it a couple times, Ill be tearing this rifle down and sending it in to get timed and trued. Im affraid Fred is going to be busier than ever but Im prepared to wait. My custom CM will be finished some time in Feb so Ill be starting this whole process over again.

Ill post up two pics of the 42.8 at 100 and 300 in a little while. Im going out to run the 260 today and looking for that faster node. Hope I dont blow it up! kind of lol.

[LongRange]

your not going to blow it up....you will be scared to shoot the next round LONG before you blow your rifle up!!

[doctnj]

Here are the range pics. I ran on target to measure group size. On the 100 yrd. If i leave out the shank its at .38 moa. Counting all its .8 .... Real bummer when I cant hold it together. Oh well I feel good about it since the first run with that same load was in the .4/.3 range. Also the 300 yrd group was .36 moa. Now for the real story. This is the best out of two targets at both yardages. Like I had said it was a real high mirage day and the target was dancing all over the place. Not to mention I left my real targets at home and had to improvise at the range.

[doctnj]

I had a friend out with me and I am not even sure if he may have not shot that one high and right. I did let him sit in here and there through out the testing at 100 yrds so I couldnt be sure.

Im going to go one by one through the cases that are primer'd and be absolutely sure I dont have a Hornady mixed in. There very well could be.

[yobuck]

They pretty much always lock up before they blow up anyway.
Another a nice thing about a Savage is its easy to get the barrel off.
But your concern about that raises a question for me at least.
Wouldnt it be prudent to find out where max is with a given powder before even starting with the ocw test?

[doctnj]

Im kind of doing both at the same time. I see your point. During the ocw I work my way up little by little so you get both bits of information together. A couple weeks back I left the range with half a box of 338 that I couldnt shoot because I hit what I believed to be my max load. So I just pulled them apart and reloaded around a couple loads that looked promising at lower charge weights.

[yobuck]

Im kind of doing both at the same time. I see your point. During the ocw I work my way up little by little so you get both bits of information together. A couple weeks back I left the range with half a box of 338 that I couldnt shoot because I hit what I believed to be my max load. So I just pulled them apart and reloaded around a couple loads that looked promising at lower charge weights.

The method could be considered crude, but im always looking for the fastest way to max performance.
So that means finding where the max load is first for a particular powder.
As an example, say you want to try Retumbo, RL25, and H1000 in your 338 lapua.
Start with a moderatly high load of each powder, and load (one) bullet.
Then increase the charge by (one) grain of powder for say six rounds total of each powder.
Fire each round over a chronagraph and make note of the velocities. At signs of pressure stop shooting with that powder.
With less than 20 rounds fired you will have the best velocity and max charge with those powders. You might find you can go
higher in charge weight before finding what your looking for, but you get the idea.
Then you could pick what appears to be the best powder at least as for velocity, and try the ocw by working down from the now known max charge.
When Bruce Baer rebarreled my old gun to the 338 Cheytec cartridge he handed me the dies id need for loading it. He also handed me a jug of
H50bmg powder and a 500 count box of 300 gr smks. He told me exactly what the seating depth should be as max oal legnth with that bullet.
He also told me to do exactly as ive oulined above by starting at 132 gr of powder and (stop) when the velocity reaches 3200 fps because thats the
accuracy spot with that cartridge. Play around with seating depth and maybe small powder increases looking for a little more, but thats the area you will find it.
Since then Reloader 33 and Reloader 50 have been introduced. He hasent told me i should try them and untill then ill just use what im using.
That is when the conditions let me use it.

[LongRange]

i agree with buck as far as finding max charge weights but in a small case id go in .5g increments not 1g...i did the exact thing he says when i first started loading but i now know about what maxes are for the cartridges i shoot....and i also know how far i can go before bad things start happening and you are still below that.

with that said the 42.8g load is a solid load stick with it and and get some trigger time and stop chasing a 1 hole group because its not going to happen until you get more control of your rifle..if at all..i shoot between 3 and 5000 rounds a year with the same rifles,scopes and triggers and in 8yrs ive shot 3 or 4 1 hole groups that i can think of off the top of my head...and not that im some great shooter but i do put my time in LOL.

if and when you switch brass back off the charge to 41.5g and work back up in .3g increments.

to add to this do you notice that ever group you shoot starts out good and then pulls right?
your 100yd target...3 rounds in pretty much the same hole then 1 slightly right then one way right.
your 300yd target...3 or 4(im not sure)stacked in nicely then 1 way right.

its a pattern in your shooting...its not the load its not the rifle...its not enough trigger time and you getting excited when you see a tight group and over thinking tensing up and pulling the last shot.

[doctnj]

You are dead on with the trigger time comment. I think Im done searching on the Creedmoor and after today I think Im done looking on the 260. I ran two areas of interest on the 260. I had my wife shoot the test around the 41.5 load and she confirmed it is accurate. You will see it at the top of one of the pics. I had her shoot it because Ive shot it twice and got good results both times. One reason I dont like it is that load is all by it self. Just above and just below opens back up.

Then I ran 42.3 up to 43.0 with .2 gr graduations and 42.3 and 42.5 both measured .622. Considering the wind was shaking the target around at leas a quarter inch I think a 42.4 load will shoot well with safety on both sides. I was shooting way below my targets because I had dialed wrong from a previous outing and since I started there I just finished the whole test on the same setting. I think the 41.5 measured around .6 with that one flyer added in.

But you see what I mean though? My wife is a tough opponent to beat!!! (check the 41.5) that small group is 4 shots and lost it on the last shot.
Then I turned around and did it a couple times.

[doctnj]

I forgot to say that there was absolutely no signs of pressure what so ever all the way to 43.0. No heavy bolt lift, no marks, no water lines, nothing so I feel just fine shooting that load. Now I just have to go see what the numbers say.

[DanSavage]

doc, are your targets set up fairly square to your firing position? The reason I ask is the bullets are not entering the paper straight. I look at my bullet holes very carefully when evaluating different loads that I test to make sure that the bullet is stabilizing correctly.

10 shot group's will give a much better indicator of the load as it will give you more time and chance to pull a group back together if you get that flier, or find out if the group is just going to grow too big. That is if you will be shooting F-class competition where long strings of fire are shot. (There's so many page's on this thread now I can't remember what your using the rifle's for or how and what your shooting off of.)LOL

It just seem's odd that there is a flier on all groups,,maybe wind?

[doctnj]

To run down all of your points Dan. No the target is more than likely not perfectly square. Come to thing of it the right side, looking at the target, is probably a couple inches back at the most. There is ALWAYS wind. I shoot in a long deep valley and have wind even when there is a temp change from high ground to low ground. Like yesterday it was blowing, shaking the rifle and the target. Was pretty tough to keep it steady even off the bags. Im shooting off a picnic table at an angle to the line of fire and using front and rear bags. The flyers have a lot to do with mental error. It is almost always the last one or two that fly's. I attribute that to breakdown in concentration and increase in negative thinking. Its funny, if I didnt shoot the last round on each string I would have much better result. And like its been said, TRIGGER TIME! These are all new rifles with the 260 being the newest so Im getting used to how the feel. Some times it feels like I expect a flyer so much that I just snap and throw one out there. Poor trigger control.
And I plan on shooting prs.

[doctnj]

Here is a pic of my range. To put it in perspective. The first target is at 100 and the back one here is at about 275. After I got my range finder I moved it back to 300 where it is now.

[LongRange]

all three of those loads below the tape are pretty solid...pick one and shoot it...id go with the 42.3g load and start shooting out as far as you can with it because thats when your going to see whats really happening.

[doctnj]

Just curious , you wouldn't split the two and load 42.4? Reasoning?

And a little off topic. This year's project will be upgrading the savage CM. I am still liking the cadex. I don't see anything that has the adjustability of the cadex that costs less. Due to what I already have into that rifle I was looking to duplicate the cadex chassis at a lesser price. Any ideas? This will be in a couple three months. First will of course be the trigger change out.

[LongRange]

nope...the 42.3g load is solid...because a .1 grain difference isnt going to change that load....what is going to make it better is trigger time and once you get to where your not pulling shots then MAYBE try and make small adjustments...you have shot several good groups but your doubting the load because of the shot outside the group...it is NOT a flier its a pulled shot so you need to work on rifle control and start shooting in positions like the type of shooting you plan to do...you dont shoot off a bench or bags in PRS so you need to get those bipod feet dirty now.

look at the evolution and the element chassis...

http://www.xlrindustries.com/evolution-HD.html

[doctnj]

Roger that

[doctnj]

I dont know where else to put it so Ill put it here. I have enough threads going anyhow. Besides it will be done to this rifle as well. I have my sss trigger on the way. I found out yesterday that the scope for my 338 actually shipped a month early. WOWZA!! I called SSS and have an appointment to have actions timed and trued and ordered a second competition trigger. It will be March but that is just fine. Ill get a little trigger time on the new triggers and see how the new scope does.

After taking the bolt apart to clean it and seeing the spots that were shiny, like half way up the cocking ramp, its apparent to me that the whole darn thing is way out of alignment. Add in some heat, grit, and grime and BAM, stiff bolt lift.

Ive been thinking about it for a long time, years actually, but this creedmoor is very finicky it seems so thats it. I dont have a barrel vise so Im just going to send the whole rifle at this point and pay to have it taken apart and put back together. I live in a very small town and we have maybe two smiths. One of them works part time at the local ace hardware where Ive had scopes bore sighted. When they told me they didnt have any torque wrench I knew at that point what I was dealing with.

[yobuck]

Well there was once a world that functioned just fine before torque wrenches were required equiptment doc.
I suppose the friendly folks at that particular Ace might not be totaly up to speed on all the great new stuff
requiring them now days. lol
I wonder if John Madden still works there? Since i gave up on tv so long ago i lose touch with all that stuff.

[doctnj]

I personally haven't known about specific torque specs till recently. Vortex seems pretty serious about their torque recommendations. Also seeking rings seem to as well. I used to just tighten down by feel but I've also stripped screws and had scopes that didn't seem to track well after mounting that I couldn't rule out the rings being too tight. I wasn't aware of the process of lapping rings, turning brass necks, truing actions, etc etc. It doesn't make a hole lit of sense to take some things to the 9th degree to achieve the best accuracy but leave some out. Just the accidental stripping of a screw or buggered head is enough to encourage a torque wrench. I use one at work almost every day and still have screws loosen or break.

[yobuck]

I personally haven't known about specific torque specs till recently. Vortex seems pretty serious about their torque recommendations. Also seeking rings seem to as well. I used to just tighten down by feel but I've also stripped screws and had scopes that didn't seem to track well after mounting that I couldn't rule out the rings being too tight. I wasn't aware of the process of lapping rings, turning brass necks, truing actions, etc etc. It doesn't make a hole lit of sense to take some things to the 9th degree to achieve the best accuracy but leave some out. Just the accidental stripping of a screw or buggered head is enough to encourage a torque wrench. I use one at work almost every day and still have screws loosen or break.

Vortex is for sure serious doc, because they know their scope wont work when the screws are too tight. That is the only reason i own a torque driver today.
After 50+ years installing scopes i can honestly say ive never snapped a screw. Torque drivers can bugger them up also, but they are replacable.
As for lapping rings, ditto on that account also. After aquiring those tools, i took the time to go back and lap all the rings on the other scopes we have.
None, really needed lapping. Its another one of those (feel good) things most shooters need never worry about. As for truing actions, again they shoot
very well without doing any of that type thing at least for the majority of us.
When you add the cost of the action plus the cost of truing, would you be better off starting with a better action to begin with?
In your case id say yes, because its one more unknown youd be removing.
Id personaly be more comfortable in knowing my gun was better than me, than the (possibility) of me being better than my gun if i were a serious competetor.
Not to say some very good shooting dosent take place with trued action guns, but the total cost is something to consider along with the
possibility of the nagging feeling always in your mind. Ultimatly, i think you will have a custom action custom gun.

[doctnj]

I knew after reading your comment buck that I would have to get to a computer. It would take too long to type on my phone. Trust me when I say its no longer about the money. I bought that rifle at auction listed one of 16 every built. Pretty rare, thought I would add it to the collection of course not knowing what savage had in mind. I think they were going to release it on the old 10ba stock, as I have, caught wind of the rpr and went back to the drawing board. I had no idea about the drawing board and paid a hefty price to own one of the few. It cost me as much as a good custom. I do have one custom and one almost finished. Both will and are on Cadex chassis. I really like those. This one, will eventually wear one. I have an appt to have both savages timed and trued. 160 bucks on top of thousands is absolutely nothing at this point. The 338 will remain in its heavy ass stock but be trued and sport an sss trigger and one day in the future will have a new barrel. I could stop now, order yet another custom and I would still have this savage 6.5 that shoots well but is frustrating to chamber that I will NEVER get my money out of even if I gold dipped it. Kay sarah sarah.
So I think its a fine shooter and I will make it a better shooter at least a better experience while shooting.