Ok Im only going to be showing one group because I tested 5 rounds at .1 gr increments and 4 of them looked about the same except this one.
Chrony numbers are
Series, 4, Shots:, 5
Min,2840, Max,2866
Avg,2851 ,S-D, 9.8
ES , 26
Series,Shot,Speed
4, 1, 2866, ft/s
4, 2, 2852, ft/s
4, 3, 2845, ft/s
4, 4, 2840, ft/s
4, 5, 2854, ft/s
Not real thrilled with the SD and ES but really that first round was out of character with the rest of them and really threw off the numbers.
They would be a whole lot better if that one was in line with the rest of them.
Load stats. 140 gr Berger Hyb Target. 42.7 gr of H4350 with cci200 primer
The lowest load was 42.4 up to 42.8 because this bracketed three shots that were pretty accurate on an earlier test. Problem is every round from start to finish was a little sticky to very sticky at the 42.8 level. It was strange. One round seemed sticky and I would have to pop it loose then the very next round seemed like it came out a little easier and I thought maybe Im over reacting. But they were all sticky really.
This is the series 4. It measured .402 MOA
The next to pictures are of the cases. I thought, at least out at the range that the primers looked a bit flat. They dont look too flat in this picture but Ill put it up for debate. Also a side view to look for pressure signs. The necks are pretty dirty and as ive said on my 338 I havent cleaned the chamber in a while and that could contribute. Ill clean just the chamber later and recheck the fit and see if they are still ultra tight.
You can really see the dull finish on the side of the case where it imprinted from the chamber.
Ok tell me what you think.
How far off the lands are you?
.19 off by average measurement. I was pulling it back to be magazine fed but still too tight to feed. Had to single feed today. One thing that I did different this time through is trimmed the case necks to 1.920 instead of 1.910 after measuring that the chamber was 1.942. I suppose that might be a contributing factor. Annealing and not trimming back to "trim to length" were the only things that were different from last run. I will need to pull back off the lands even more to be mag fed.
Do the primers look flat to you?
No tbe primers look fine to me...id shoot the 42.7g load and start at .025 off the lands and then .035 off...and a 26fps ES is not bad.
Are you measuring off the ogive or the case over all length?
The ES would be in the teens if that first round wasn't so high. Also I just finished cleaning the chamber and the cartridges did not feel near as tight. The 338 was not that way. After I cleaned it the tight cartridges remained tight. So it's possible it could have been build up as well. I will back the bullets out and run it again.
My 260 likes them .035 off the lands.
I am measuring to the ogive. I use the 5-26 comparator. That one looks like it fits the hybrids the best so i stick to it so i get the same measurement from start to finish.
Thats the right one...i think backing off a little will tighten it up and may also reduce the ES.
Well then that will be my goal. Ill load up a few more and check at 100 then run it out to 300 and see how it holds up.
Going to a fairly large gun show tomorrow. Hope to accomplish two things. 1. Dont buy a gun lol. and 2. FIND POWDER!! If I can walk away with 20 or so pounds of some various powder I will consider it a success.
One more question. I use walnut media in my cleaner. It has rouge in it. I see people adding all kinds of stuff to their media. Do you put in additives? If so what?
I stainless steel tumble ive never used a dry tumbler.
Personally, I think those velocities are rather high for a Creed if you're shooting 140s. I could be wrong, because I run rather slow, at 2700fps, but they seem awfully high. And .1 gr increments is way too close for an OCW. The purpose of OCW is to give you a broad range that will give you the same basic POA over a wide spectrum. After that, seating depth will tighten the groups.
For what it's worth, I'm shooting 140 hybrids with 41.8gr of H4350 and CCI BR2s, jumping them something stupid like 80 thou, and they're running 2700fps. It shoots one hole if I do my part, so I don't mind the little loss in velocity. Most people I know running Creeds run 2800 or slower. 2850 is cooking.
To address your first point. This is about the third run on my ocw with this being a fine tune. I ran several at .5 grains and .3 grain spreads already. That is the reason for such small increments. I wanted to watch where it opens up and verify where it was closed. That is why I originally stated that several of the results looked very similar and I only showed one. However the very next load started opening back up. So although this was the tightest group, it was indeed on the edge of the accuracy node. The SD's and ES's of the previous groups were quite similar. Until yesterday, I didnt know what walking a load up at .1 gr increments would look like. Now I do. I could be wrong in my reasoning, however I would think that running such a course test as .5, you could be stepping right over solid gold. Unless you happen to land on that single hole load.
As far as velocity, yes its at the extreme. And I am going to re run with bullets pulled back just to see if there is any additional improvements like drop in velocity and possible tightening of the groups. I would never continue to run a load that displayed signs of high pressure, especially multiple signs. I did clean the chamber last night and even the cases from the tightest group ran through extremely well. I know thats not the same however, when I did this same thing with my 338, the loads that were sticky were still sticky after the chamber was cleaned so again that gave me knowledge.
And lastly, this is a huge learning process for me. I want to see exactly what effects changing certain parameters have on the outcome at the range. This rifle is kind of my sacrificial lamb so to speak. Once my competition rifles are ready to shoot I will be moving over to them and starting over. Hopefully being able to transfer a lot of lessons learned. I wont be quite so abusive to them albeit I will more than likely find where my upper end in pressure is and then find a load below that.
This rifle will soon become a bit of a safe queen. I really dont want to shoot out the barrel. This is a limited edition so I would like to keep original parts on it at least for now. However if I do decide to pull it out and shoot it at some point, Ill know what to load up for it.
Last edited by doctnj; 01-02-2016 at 09:16 AM.
But yes I agree its too hot and somethings got to give. I want to see what that is exactly. It may be a powder adjustment; a bullet adjustment, or both.
I agree with doing your own testing to find what works and what don't...it's the best way to learn what's what.
A slight difference between 2 different shell holders in your press might make a difference as to how the brass chambers in the 338.
Or any gun for that matter. What it does is bump the shoulder slightly. Places like Sinclairs sell sets of shell holders refered to as
(competetion shell holders). The die settings remain and just the shell holder is changed till the case chambers properly.
People have also been known to modify standard ones. Last fall i was loading for my sons 338x378 and found that the full legnth resized
cases were chambering tight. So i looked thru the pile of shell holders we have and picked another one which was an identicle RCBS #14.
I switched shell holders and the cases chambered just fine. So that shell holder is now in the box with those dies. Just a thought, maybe worth trying for you.
As for the 338, as you know its primarily a long range cartridge. Thats not to say its big and dumb and cant be shot accuratly however.
First off it uses the best brass on the planet which is annealed when purchased so thats a non issue. The factory chamber requires no neck turning so thats also a non issue.
Exact case legnth is also pretty much a non issue. If we choose to have the finished rounds work in the magazine, as opposed to just being loaded singely,
thats also a non issue because the decision has been made for us as to overall legnth.
There are actually only a few powders we at least should use in those type cases, and which one dosent really matter all that much.
So if we choose say a 300 gr smk with say Retumbo, we would load 1 round with the starting load charge weight choice.
Then 1 round in half grain or even full grain increases till we reach what has been described as the max load known for the cartridge using those components.
For a wildcat cartridge with no published data, use your gut with where to start with whatever your choice components and proceed the same way.
Shoot each round over a chronagraph, starting with the lowest charge untill the velocity is where you would like it to be. Stop anywhere along the way if pressure signs
show up. Start over with a different powder if necessary. Once the preferred velocity level has been achieved, stop and look for accuracy by playing with the seating depth.
Also tweek the charge up or down in small increments if necessary. If the loads dont perform, divorce your favorite bullet first and try others.
I personaly wouldnt let 50 or more fps make a decision over accuracy. Thats what scope dials are for. There comes a point with these type cartridges where we need to say
thats good enough to get the job done they were designed for.
A final note would be once youve achieved the desired velocity, shooting at 100 yds is fruitless.
400 yds would be where the true accuracy picture could be seen.
And thats not just my 2 cents worth.
Last edited by yobuck; 01-02-2016 at 12:46 PM.
This is not how OCW works. It's not designed to be splitting hairs between .1 grain increments. OCW nodes tend to be roughly .7gr apart, from what I recall when talking with Dan about it a year ago or so. Dan is a good friend of mine, and I shoot matches up there every 4-6 weeks. If you're seeing that big of a difference between a .1gr difference in charge weight, you're not on a node, or there's another problem somewhere. OCW is about getting the center of the groups to all fall in the same spot. Precision (group size) is then tuned with seating depth.Originally Posted by doctnj
Well I ran through the gun show and grabbed up all the h4350. There was 4 lbs. Should be glad there was any at all. Did pick up some imr3031 for my gas guns but again only two lbs. Then went by one of the biggest reloading supply places in town and they had neither. They did have primers. No h1000 anywhere. I could have walked away with all the imr4350 I could carry. Anyone ever use that?
yes...i shot 2800 rounds through my first 260 barrel with IMR4350.
Upslide, thank you very much for your input. I appreciate everything I can get. I initially ran a .5 ladder and identified two nodes below max load. Then I went searching for another one above max. Same thing, course ladder done and found a load that shot quite well. Weather it was a "node" or not is kind of semantics. I knew two things going into this test. It was a smoken fast load and seemed pretty accurate. So now to verify. I went with .1 for a few below and a few above. Seems like all the numbers held in there. It just so happen that the very last group on the edge was tightest. So is this a load that I will continue to shoot? Not if I don't get the pressure to back off.
It's been expressed that finding a "node" center insures that if a load error happens, i.e. +- .5 gr, that it's still going to be good. And more than likely, when the new rifles are employed, that is where I will end up. Maybe I should call this testing something else so it doesn't cause quite the stir. I don't see an issue with finding a load that is dead on, has good numbers, and loading it. Except, I won't have the safety net of a little powder wiggle room. I am pushing you for knowledge.
Is Imr4350 less temp stable? I may switch down the road because it's everywhere!
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