Need help! Light primer strike confusion 111 TH XP

slug · 12-31-2015, 07:21 PM

So I have a 111 TH XP in 7mm rem mag. I bought the gun about a year ago and only shot 20 rounds through it the day I bought it. (turns out I can't actually afford to shoot 7mm). Since then it has just been sitting in my safe unused. So now my problem is I got some 7mm dies for Christmas and I threw together some reloads. However I took the gun out and out of the 20 reloads I had EVERY SINGLE ONE was a light primer strike, even with repeated chamberings not 1 went off. So obviously my first thought was, wow I really screwed this ammo up somehow. However, today I took it out again with some factory ammo, and it was most certainly better, but still out of around 12 I had 1 Dud in the factory bunch as well. So my thoughts are that the rifle is hitting the primers pretty weak and that my reloads might just be using a bit tougher primers (winchester large rifle magnum primers if it matters to anyone) but that astounds me with the rifle being so relatively new and having such little use through it. Before my second outing I took the bolt apart and cleaned it (it wasn't gunked up or anything) and gave it some lube. That didnt seem to be the problem though. So I'm out of ideas and confused, if anyone has some input or ideas that'd be great.

As a side question does the model 111 have the same bolt design as an axis? From what I've gathered the internet seems to say that the 111 should be closer to the model 10 bolt. However, I had this bolt apart and its got the same guts as an axis it would seem. Would that be because its the TH XP and a package gun? Just something I was wondering about.

**bedlamite** · 12-31-2015, 07:45 PM

If you can't get a single one to fire, pull the bolt apart and see if there's anything obvious wrong first, but I'd contact savage about it.

Every one of my Savage rifles has had issues with military and magnum primers, but it's maybe 10-20% failure. Replacing the spring fixes that:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/474...g-action-32-lb

**Robinhood** · 12-31-2015, 08:56 PM

Is it an Accutrigger? Do the cartridges that did not fire have indentations in the primer?

slug · 12-31-2015, 09:56 PM

Originally Posted by bedlamite

If you can't get a single one to fire, pull the bolt apart and see if there's anything obvious wrong first, but I'd contact savage about it.

Every one of my Savage rifles has had issues with military and magnum primers, but it's maybe 10-20% failure. Replacing the spring fixes that:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/474...g-action-32-lb

Just had it apart again. everything seems fine. Like I said with factory ammo it shot 12 out of 13 on my second outing. I was looking into the springs but it looks like the bolt design has changed, my bolt has 2 small springs at the base of the firing pin rather than the 1 large spring running the distance of the firing pin. I might try getting the spring and cutting it down to the correct size, I read that someone did that with success.

slug · 12-31-2015, 09:58 PM

Originally Posted by Robinhood

Is it an Accutrigger? Do the cartridges that did not fire have indentations in the primer?

Yes it is an accu trigger, that doesnt seem to be the issue as all the cases had an imprint so the firing pin is hitting for sure.

**foxx** · 12-31-2015, 11:10 PM

"ASIDE" QUESTION: Yes, internals of the bolts on the TH's (and others, such as FCNS) are similar design as the Axis. That doesn't make them any less of a model 10/110 series, however. I would say that is where any similarity to the Axis ends.

**drybean** · 12-31-2015, 11:24 PM

Just a guess be sure that your primers are fully seated & be sure that you are not your pushing shoulders to for back

**adammiddagh** · 12-31-2015, 11:33 PM

Originally Posted by slug

I was looking into the springs but it looks like the bolt design has changed, my bolt has 2 small springs at the base of the firing pin rather than the 1 large spring running the distance of the firing pin.

Maybe this is a silly thought, but is it possible your firing pin spring broke in two? I don't have an accutrigger model to take apart and look at. I didn't think the bolt assemblies were any different than my pre accutrigger 110 setups.

slug · 12-31-2015, 11:55 PM

Thanks that had me pretty confused. Perhaps you'd be able to answer another question? I've been running through the depths of the internet and from what I can see when you extract a round you reset the firing pin to its most rearward position, where the back of the firing pin is flush with the back face of the bolt (indicating the rifle is cocked). Then when you close the bolt on a new round the firing pin stays in that same position flush with the back of the bolt until you fire. On my rifle when you pull up on the bolt handle the pin goes all the way rear but when I close the bolt forward all the way the firing pin moves forward about 1/4th of the way back to the fired position where its no longer flush. Just an observation I made while looking around would like to know if I'm crazy or not. I could also post some pictures of what I mean if my very long-winded explanation was unclear.

**adammiddagh** · 01-01-2016, 12:16 AM

The pin in the triangular hole at the back of the bolt is what cocks/drops the firing pin. That pin rides in the right receiver channel.

From the fired position, when the bolt handle is raised, the triangular hole in the bolt body / ramp rolls over and pulls the firing pin to the rear and into the cocked position. When in the cocked position, the sear resets.

When the bolt handle is lowered, the small pin slides forward slightly and rests on the sear. The small pin is then lined up in the longer side of the triangular opening, giving the small pin room to move forward with the firing pin when the sear is dropped.

I think what I have not seen is possibly an extension of the firing pin going into a hole through the BAS as a chocked indicator. None of mine are that way, but both of mine are pre accutrigger.

Hope that helps,
Adam.

**Robinhood** · 01-01-2016, 12:18 AM

Originally Posted by slug

Then when you close the bolt on a new round the firing pin stays in that same position flush with the back of the bolt until you fire. On my rifle when you pull up on the bolt handle the pin goes all the way rear but when I close the bolt forward all the way the firing pin moves forward about 1/4th of the way back to the fired position where its no longer flush. Just an observation I made while looking around would like to know if I'm crazy or not. I could also post some pictures of what I mean if my very long-winded explanation was unclear.

Post some pictures.

Your firing pin travel is almost 1/4 inch from the factory if you were to dry fire it and measure its full movement. That is measured from cocked position to fired position in the bolt body. If it falls .06 before the trigger catches the sear, you end up with less than .2 travel to where the pin bottoms out on the nose of the head. Some savage smiths alter that to something near .150 by adjusting the rear nut on the firing pin screw 2-3 full turns or even 4. That shortens the distance the cocking pin travels up the cocking ramp. And finally some of the guys on here like < .040 firing pin protrusion, personally I like .050 +or-.

Edit: Sorry If I repeated what Adam wrote we were typing at the same time obviously.

**adammiddagh** · 01-01-2016, 12:27 AM

Good note about the protrusion.

I made a protrusion go/nogo gauge. If memory serves, the shallow side is .031", and the deep is .041".

When I adjust a firing pin, it has to touch the shallow and clear the deep.

Never had a missfire(before or after I adjustment). I will say that either of my 2 current guns have never seen a factory load.

I remeasured my gauge and corrected the dimensions above.

slug · 01-01-2016, 12:37 AM

So here is what I'm talking about.
Here is all the way forward after you pull the trigger

Here is bolt open (pin all the way to the rear)

And lastly here is the bolt closed with the rifle still charged (such as it would be on an unfired case). My question is should the pin not still be flush?

**adammiddagh** · 01-01-2016, 12:42 AM

It will go in some. As you lower the handle, the small pin rolls down the ramp and rests on the sear in the right receiver channel(indicator / firing pin moves in slightly as that happens).

**short round** · 01-01-2016, 01:10 AM

Cocked indicator should be close to flush with BAS when cocked. There should be a spacer between the firing pin springs, it looks like an O, same thickness as a spring coil. I would take action out of stock & see if it cocks O.K., if it does check for trigger & sear interference with stock.

**foxx** · 01-01-2016, 01:36 AM

Yes, there is a problem there. The back of the pin should be protruding just a bit thru the back of the BAS when the handle is closed down. As short said, check for that washer/ring of steal between the two springs. It is easy to lose it if you disassemble it. The ring is supposed to be there to prevent the two springs from getting hung-up on each other. I am guessing it missing and therefore allowing your pin to travel further forward than it should.

**when I cock mine, the pin sticks out of the bas and does not move forward (maybe it does a tiny bit) when closing the bolt handle. Moreover, mine seems to protrude thru the bas quite a bit more than yours does even before lowering the handle. ***

Ah, heck! I don't know for sure if what I am seeing means anything or not. If the rear of your firing pin is cut shorter, it won't necessarily protrude the same way mine does. And I am not sure how that washer/ring between the springs would affect things if its not there, but it does LOOK different than mine. THat's a fact.