I recently installed a new Criterion 223 REM barrel on my 12 FV action. I am following Criterion's recommendation to break-in the barrel using their recommended cleaning procedure. I'm firing a single round, then pushing a patch soaked with Hoppe's #9 back and forth through the bore followed a couple of dry patches. Next I clean out the copper with Sweets 7.62. It takes about 4 to 5 patches soaked with Sweet's pushed back and forth followed by a couple of dry patches after each wet patch to remove all of the copper. I let the Sweet's soak in for 5 or 10 minutes, no more, prior to the dry patches.
So far I've done this for 20 rounds (very time consuming) and have noticed a small reduction in the copper fouling but there is still copper fouling after each firing.
Criterion's break in process states the following:
"When fouling begins to diminish after each shot, group sizes can be subsequently increased to five rounds. When fouling is reduced after each five round group, the group size can be increased to ten rounds. If the barrel has no copper fouling after a ten round group, your rifle is ready for your next match."
My questions are:
- Is it realistic to expect that there will be no copper fouling after a 10 round group considering that after cleaning as stated above after each round for 20 rounds there continues to be copper fouling?
- How many single rounds should I expect to fire/clean before I get no copper fouling after one round?
Thanks for your help.
Not all barrel makers agree on the need to break in a barrel in a specific manner.
Hart barrels is but one which dosent, unless theres been a recent change to their policy.
I suppose it could be argued that it cant hurt. But does it actually help could also be argued.
If it shoots ill shoot it, and when it stops ill clean it has been my personal criteria.
Im somewhat surprised a barrel maker would suggest using a product like Sweets, which if not used
carefully could do more harm than good.
1 - On a "Case-by-case" barrel only, yes/no, and maybe.Originally Posted by BigDad
2 - It depends.
The problem is that NO two barrels are ever the same. The fundamental notion behind barrel "break-in", is to smooth any tooling marks, and hit the "sweet spot" on bore smoothness for minimal fouling. Great idea, BUT..... Unless you have a high quality bore scope to inspect PRIOR to any use, you have no honest baseline to compare it to. So are you achieving the magic amount, not enough, or too much? You can't answer this objectively. I personally also have an issue with the thought that unless you clean, somehow any "ironing" of tool marks magically stops. Or how in 20-50 rounds you can wear a barrel that is expected to live... say 5,000 rounds, that quickly; then suddenly stop that massive wear rate. Even using a Hawkeye, if you shoot enough barrels, you will see what looks like great bores copper foul. Sometimes some that look attrocious, won't. So ultimately the question becomes what is your goal? If your goal is simply to never see copper fouling, then accuracy may or may not align with that. If accuracy is your goal, then how quickly you see copper fouling; may or may not coincide with it's first appearance. Then what bullets are you using, and pressures run... Lots to consider here.
I have some barrels that look disgusting after 10 rounds, I have one that only shows after several hundred rounds. Accuracy with all of them don't seem to tie with the ability to visibly see any copper fouling.
So do what you wish, but don't expect A single answer; it doesn't exist. I shoot until groups fall off, depending upon the rifles purpose that may be tens of rounds or hundreds.
I agree with your post Yobuck, but would like to point out an often missed detail on Sweets-type products.
Ammonia won't harm barrel steel, By itself. Where the trouble can come is from water, thereby causing rusting/pitting. Here in the Basin and down in Yuma, AZ, there is essentially zero humidity for the bulk of the year. I've left Sweets and a homemade variant in barrels over-night with no issue. Provided I can keep my poop in a group, that barrel still holds moa to a mile with more than 3,000 rounds down the tube.
That said, if you live in the bayou, that probably isn't a wise idea.
I'm a firm believer in the theory that if it bleeds, I can kill it.
Well since the manufacturer recommends it I thought it won't hurt but this sure is time consuming and I'm not sure if realistic to expect a barrel not to have some copper fouling after 10 rounds. That would be nice if true though.
Did Criterion say to go "back & forth" with the cleaning rod? All my cleaning is in the same direction, and that is the direction the "pill" goes.
Have you not used Gunslick Bore Foam for copper. It is so east copper is a non issue for me, and it contains no ammonia.
A while back, my BIL broke in a new Lilja barrel by shooting,and cleaning, 50 rounds into an abandoned dynamite safe in an afternoon. When I ask him about it, he said, "oh well, I needed to fire form cases anyway.
My break in method is to shoot and clean normally. JMHO :-)
I'm no expert but I'll throw my 2 cents in here. Are you applying a thin film of lubricant after the Sweets? CLP then a dry patch would be good. Sweets is going to leave the steel clean & dry, friction from the copper & dry steel is going to leave a film of copper no matter what. I've got a CBI barrel that should be here within the month and I'm going to break it in my way. First its going to get soaked and patched with Kroil for a couple days. Then its going to get soaked and patched with CLP for a few days. Then it gets a couple passes of Eezox over a couple of days. Dry patch before it goes to the range. The first 25 rounds are loaded with a cool burning powder about 1800 FPS and they get shot slow to avoid barrel heat. Sounds like a lot of piddling around doesn't it but the last 6 barrels I have done this way have paid me back in spades. When I was younger I fouled some what I thought were good barrels so bad in the first 5 shots I didn't think they would ever clean up. Also its my belief that some jackets are softer than others and foul, deposit copper much quicker.
Perfectly reasonable.
They also say don't buy from anyone but them
I'm a firm believer in the theory that if it bleeds, I can kill it.
Someone mentioned Moblle 1 reciently. I wonder if treating a bore with Z-Max could help? It sure does wonders for engine cylinders :-)
No they did not say go back and forth. Do you think that is a problem?
Yes I have tried Gunslick foam, works well but I am using the products they recommend.
No I did not lubricate the barrel after the Sweets, just ran a couple of dry patches through then fired. I'll give the CLP a try.
darkker,
My immediate goal to break in the barrel per the manufacturer's recommendation. My ultimate goal is to coax as much accuracy and life from this barrel as I can. A nice bi-product of this would be a barrel that does not require a great deal of cleaning to maintain the accuracy but that is not the real goal.
The feedback so far is helpful much appreciated but hasn't really answered my question so I'll rephrase it. Have any of you guys owned or have first hand knowledge of a barrel that is capable of firing 10 rounds of high velocity ammo with zero copper fouling?
I just don't want to chase my tail trying to achieve something that is not achievable.
yes i have one but its a bartlein...i had a criterion that held no copper but had other issues...here are links to kreiger and shilen for break ins...i know yours is a criterion but a hand lapped barrel IMHO does not need broken in but the throat on some barrels may need to be...personally with a new barrel i shoot 1 and clean for 3 rounds then shoot a 10 shot group and let the barrel cool clean and im done...i only do this to see if its going to foul heavy or light which gives me an idea of when to clean...
https://kriegerbarrels.com/faq#breakin
http://www.shilen.com/faq.html#question10
Thanks LR.
So I followed Iowa Fox's recommendation and after my last firing/cleaning I applied some CLP then a dry patch. Then I fired a round and the copper fouling was dramatically reduced. There was still some very light blue on the Sweets patch but not nearly as much as previously. I think I'm ready to start firing groups. Thanks IF!
The following was written by Gale McMillan, I read it on SniperCountry years ago, here: http://www.snipercountry.com/Article...el_breakin.asp
"The break in fad was started by a fellow I helped get started in the barrel business . He started putting a set of break in instructions in ever barrel he shipped. One came into the shop to be installed and I read it and the next time I saw him I asked him What was with this break in crap?. His answer was Mac, My share of the market is about 700 barrels a year. I cater to the target crowd and they shoot a barrel about 3000 rounds before they change it. If each one uses up 100 rounds of each barrel breaking it in you can figure out how many more barrels I will get to make each year. If you will stop and think that the barrel doesn't know whether you are cleaning it every shot or every 5 shots and if you are removing all foreign material that has been deposited in it since the last time you cleaned it what more can you do? When I ship a barrel I send a recommendation with it that you clean it ever chance you get with a brass brush pushed through it at least 12 times with a good solvent and followed by two and only 2 soft patches. This means if you are a bench rest shooter you clean ever 7 or 8 rounds . If you are a high power shooter you clean it when you come off the line after 20 rounds. If you follow the fad of cleaning every shot for X amount and every 2 shots for X amount and so on the only thing you are accomplishing is shortening the life of the barrel by the amount of rounds you shot during this process. I always say Monkey see Monkey do, now I will wait on the flames but before you write them, Please include what you think is happening inside your barrel during break in that is worth the expense and time you are spending during break in"
I no longer worry about breaking in a barrel. I shoot it and clean it when I'm done.
i was looking for that article this morning and couldnt find but id thought that krieger had written it so thats why i couldnt find it...i know some of the BR guys clean in between relays but most are only cleaning soot/carbon not copper and others only clean every xxx amount of rounds. what it boils down to is that every barrel is different and you need to keep close track to actually know when it needs to be cleaned.
i had a factory barrel that went south at 50-75 rounds...a shilen that would start to act up at about 250 rounds and the bartlein on my short action holds no copper after 150 to 200 rounds so i doubt ill clean it for at least 500 rounds.
also i think you should sticky that link hunti1
I understand BigDad, but you are asking for mostly absolutes on something that has none. Read Huntin's post with Gales thoughts.
1) This is a fine thing, but as you have stated, you already broke rank on the cleaning.
2) What we all hope for, but I think you are making mountains out of a mole hill.
3) All of my Rugers, one Savage, and a ER Shaw will all do this.
4) This is the kicker. What you should do is enjoy your rifle, and stop worrying. IF that means ANY break-in, fine; if not, also fine.
If you aren't going to melt the barrel or shoot nuclear loads, the likely hood is that the barrel will have more rounds of accurate life than you will shoot it. For a maintained bolt gun that doesn't get abused, assuming quality to begin with; a safe bet for MOA accuracy is around 3,000 rounds. Do you think that 20-50 shots is really going to make a dent in barrel wear when compared to natural wearing from firing? Based on whatever your answer to this is, choose what to do next. For having a goal of maintaining accuracy, you keep tripping on a potentially unrelated issue: Copper.
IF: The rifle is shooting accurately as your goal stated, why do you care if you can see copper in the bore? Barrels are no different than tires on your car, they are a consumable. There is no single answer on how you "are supposed to" use them. There are just choices that make you happy, not empirical answers.
Whatever route you go, enjoy it; don't fret over it.
I'm a firm believer in the theory that if it bleeds, I can kill it.
Yo can take one 32 inch barrel blank and cut it in half making two barrels. With these two barrels you can shoot one with no break in procedure and shoot the other with a break in procedure and may or may not be able to tell the difference in accuracy. Just the nature of the beast.
"And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” John 8:32 (New King James Version)
I stick to a very strict bore cleaning regimen.
When I get a barrel, I clean it before I shoot it. When accuracy suffers, I clean it again.
If I ever saw proof that barrel break in worked, I still wouldn't do it.
Thanks for the help folks. Now to get down to shooting. I hope this thing shoots bug holes, we'll see. :)
I'm mostly in the "no break in" camp, but recently I've taken to running JB Bore compound through unlapped barrels after cleaning the shipping grease out. I treat lapped barrels as plug and play.
And if you bring that barrel back to the maker and complain about accuracy not being achieved, the first question they're going to ask is "did you break it in according to our (onerous) directions?". If you answer no, you've given them the perfect excuse to blame you for what may be a workmanship issue.
Q: Does it make sense to break in a barrel using a powder with copper fouling eraser? Wouldn't that remove copper before it can plate the barrel and make cleaning much easier?
While I'm not a fan of criterion I will say that their customer service is outstanding...a buddy of mine had an issue with a criterion barrel so he called and spoke with the guy that posts on the board here...the only question he asked was where to send the shipping label...criterion replaced the barrel,threaded it and installed a muzzle break that indexed perfectly all free of charge and he had it back in 2wks.I also had a shilen barrel I waited almost 9 months for that I had an issue with...they also fixed the issue paid for both ways and I had it back in 9 days.If you talk to the barrel makers most don't agree with the shoot one clean for X amount of rounds.
LR, what kind of issues were you having with the CBI? I have a 26" heavy varmint sitting on my build now and sure hope I got a good one. Are problems frequent with the Criterions?
my buddies barrel was fouling very heavy at the lands/throat and the crown was messed up...some of the fouling was partly due to the rifle being bedded 2-3" past the lug but as i said criterion stepped right up and took care of it...as far as im concerned they went above and beyond.
i seriously doubt you will have any issues with your barrel but if you do you can bet they will take care of it.
something you have to keep in mind is the amount of barrels a barrel make produce each year and as with anything theres bound to be a bad one get by every now and then...if you search around you can find someone that has had a bad experience with just about every barrel maker out there but in the end what matters is how they handle the problem.
theres a lot of guys out there shooting bug holes with criterion barrels and id be willing to bet yours will too!
My new Criterion should be here in a couple weeks. Hoping its a good one but also nervous it could be a dud. Friend of mine got a dud from one of the major MFGs and they didn't step up for him so he had to reach into his pocket for the cost of a new one. Of course it has from a different company (Krieger) that one shot to his expectations.
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