Reply With QuoteYou should be running fed 215s in that lapua...or at least cci250s...what powder did you shoot in the 338?
And if your ESs are in the teens your doing good...a few tweaks and you may be able to get them a little bit lower.
Today it took 4 hours to shoot both rifles looking for ocw's for each rifle. I promised to do it Newberryisk, but I cant help myself I have to mess with things. I kind of did it 6.5 guys way. The main difference is shooting the entire string then letting the barrel cool and moving on to next powder level. Between strings I swapped out from the 6.5 to 338 to allow barrels to cool and back and fourth. I havent crunched all the numbers yet but the ones that I did i am pleased by my ES across the board they were in high teens and low 20s. Not the best but a ton better than 114 i was getting last time. yest 114. I did get some large spreads on the 338 but I feel it had more to do with not being annealed causing various amounts of spring back. So that will be an area that will get more attention next time around.
Tomorrow I will use on target and measure a few of the winners to see what the spreads are. Some times the chroney would say some wild number differences yet the target showed fairly tight group.
And one last thing to be thinking about. My heaviest load was 92 gr of H1000 with 300 gr SMK. cci200 primer. The very last round was very sticky. I had to "pop" it out and one other from that 5 was a stiff bolt lift. The primers all looked good I will post pictures so you can help me look for pressure signs. My pos chrony error so many friggin times. I almost shot it on purpose. Magneeto speed on order.
Seriously, if someone would like an entry level chronograph please make offer. Been used twice. 50 bucks?
Last edited by doctnj; 12-21-2015 at 11:25 AM. Reason: didnt have my reading glasses.
You should be running fed 215s in that lapua...or at least cci250s...what powder did you shoot in the 338?
And if your ESs are in the teens your doing good...a few tweaks and you may be able to get them a little bit lower.
You are correct sir. They were sold out at the time. But I have some now. So im good to go in that department. Some of the variances could have been incomplete powder burn but Im sure neck tension had more to play in that. But again I dont know about my numbers I got. For now I am going to take them as gospel until I re test with magneto speed. Those 338 cases may have been shot twice, re sized twice and not annealed at all. The last target measured just over 1/2 moa but out of 6 rounds, one being sight in on another target. I had two sticky bolt lifts. I will post pics etc for some help to try and identify pressure signs. Im not seeing any except maybe some shiny spots on the brass adjacent to the primer.
sorry about the weird last post. Im surprised you could make out what I was saying. Didnt have my reading glasses so it looked good to me lol.
Off to get a shot in my spine. Getting old sucks.
These are the six 92 gr 338 cases. I will say that they are nearly touching the lands. If my measurements are right then they are .002 off so that could be where the pressure is coming from.
http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/...&1450713812584
side view.
http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/...&1450714084611
The worst two
http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/...&1450714084612
side view
http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/...&1450714084612
The reason Im so interested in these is they were the most accurate and 92.2 is a known accuracy load.
back the bullets off the lands and that should take care of the extractor marks...i dont like jamming or being real close to the lands anymore...when jammed or close it really changes the pressure curve and causes a big spike.
My plan is to anneal the 338 then resize and pull them back .020 and re shoot. I will put up the targets now. I measured them all out. I think with the wild spread in the 338's though, sporadic neck tension got me as well as being way too close to lands. Im going to re visit 91 grains and a couple each side. 92 grains and a couple each side.
http://s1075.photobucket.com/user/do...tml?sort=3&o=1
Here is 6.5 I think I want to look at 42.5 to just the other side of 42.8 and around 43.3. 43.5 opened back up and started sticking and these are NOT on the lands I loaded them to just barely fit the mag.
http://s1075.photobucket.com/user/do...tml?sort=3&o=0
Thoughts?
Last edited by doctnj; 12-21-2015 at 07:30 PM.
with the 338 91 grains has a pretty good water line going so seating depth will probably fix that but personally id back off the lands use the fed215s and re-shoot that test.
with the 6.5 41.8 looks decent and 42 looks like your on the edge of another node but if your getting pressure at 43.5 i wouldnt go past 43 looking for that next higher node because in the summer it will most likely not shoot well.
also since it seems you dont have the patients to shoot the OCW test correctly you may want to just shoot a ladder test with the 338 but it should be shot off a bench and off a nice set of bags or a front rest and a bag at 4-500yds.
OMG LR you are absolutely correct on the patience statement. I was literally laughing out loud. I will say I did a lot better this time around but my adhd kicks in.
But I think you are spot on with the 6.5. Going to load 42.4 to 42.8 and see how those perform.
And your right I was on the fence about the 338 test having any value at this point until I anneal the cases and back them out.
Thank you for YOUR patience.
doc
If you still can't get the Lapua to shoot after annealing and backing them off a little bit, you could always go to a lighter bullet. I know you want to shoot the heavier pills, but I always tend to start on the lighter side. I had great luck with Hornady 285gr BTHPs, but 300gr SMKs not so much. YMMV, but don't be afraid to try different bullet combinations as sometimes certain barrels just don't like certain bullet combinations.
I think you've got a great starting point, but we still like to see those groups all touching each other at 2-3-400 yards
[I]"In the end, run what 'ya brung because it's better than nothing and don't give two ****s what some interwebs chat board guy says about your rig."[/I]
Thats a really good point. Ive only ever shot the 300's for a couple years now. When I first started shooting it a couple years ago my groups were terrible, like hard to get on paper at 250 terrible, so Im at least liking the direction Im going. The scope on it is also a couple years old and could use an upgrade. With out going and looking at the exact power is something like 5-20 Weaver tactical with basic mil dot reticle with solid cross hairs. I found they covered up my small dots at 200 yesterday. I need to upgrade and its on the back burner to do so but I just built two rifles and had to top them off with some vortex's. Who needs retirement! I did however adjust the eye relief after getting home yesterday. Ive been needing to do that for a long time. After remounting the scope after painting I had it too far forward and had to put my cheek on the front edge of the cheek rest. Doable at lower mag but really uncomfortable at full mag. So there is that as well. Getting a much better sight picture. Also I dont think the parallax is quite as accurate as the vortex. I had to adjust to nearly 300 to get all movement out of the cross hairs.
Had to break it to my wife this morning that I bought yet another scope for the 260 being built. I think I need to go to some kind of a meeting.
This is a problem ^^, here is why.Originally Posted by doctnj
Since around the 1950's no one lists cartridge case alloys or hardness specs. The last listed was in the 30-06 cases built by Olin, they used alloy C260 with a Tensile strength spec of around 85,000psi. So when you notices those cases having issues, you knew you were in the pressure range of 85,000 psi.
Because almost no one lists the nominal BR variations of their powders, they only way to track pressure(without actually using a strain system) is to watch velocities. When manuals shoot data they use SAAMI minimum spec equipment(bore/groove, chamber specs), so a mass produced rifle will be "sloppier" than that. That last part is why factory rifles 99% of the time won't print the same velocity, unless you are over pressure compared to the tested data.
From pressure testing a handful of chamberings and rifles, *TYPICALLY* factory rifles today won't show "pressure signs" until the area of 75,000 psi. As manuals say, measuring cases and watching for "signs" is better than nothing, but not much. Watch the velocities, when you match or exceed book velocities; you have gone over book pressure.
I'm a firm believer in the theory that if it bleeds, I can kill it.
Im going to go back and inspect all the 338 cases but is it safe to re load those 6?
As far as going over book velocities, every single 6.5 was over book velocity max, some by as much as 200, but only the 43 grainers stuck a bit.
However the 338's were all over the place. Higher grain werent always higher velocity. I only got a couple readings on the max charge I shot but they surprisingly were lower than a few others with less powder that didnt stick to my knowledge. Now the chrony I used was finicky and very sensitive to where the bullet had to pass over the meter to get a reading therefore I got several errors and no reads. Hopefully the magneto speed will fix that. Never the less I am going to reshoot.
One last thought, could the chamber be getting dirty causing the sticking? I have probably put a couple hundred rounds down range with out cleaning.
With the chrono problems you had, I wouldn't trust any of the readings.
Specifically in the Creedmoor, because we've Pressure Traced the snot out of it; velocity is not linear.
With one in particular but if memory serves, every 75-100 fps will come at the price of @ 10,000 psi. There is a particular board that is a fan of the Creed, almost everyone on that board over loads the snot out of that cartridge. As long as you UNDERSTAND what you are doing then fine, over-load if you want to. My point is simply that you absolutely cannot tell pressures by staring at the brass.
The part that trips most people up, is the charges and velocities. Many will tell you that canister grade powder(what the reloader can buy) holds burning rates to 1.5%; meaning a possible total swing of 3%. That is false, and I have plenty of traces to prove it. There is a VERY real reason why the warnings are printed stating to "Drop 10% when switching lots". In the newest Norma loading manual there is a fantastic article detailing how much difference in burning rate there is, based upon moisture content; even from sealed containers!
Reloading those 6 cases probably isn't a big deal. IME when there is a case head seperation, assuming you aren't running excessively high pressure when it happens, there really isn't much to it. I don't anneal, but have had some very old cases separate, but only knew it when I ejected them.
The chamber being dirty certainly could play into being sticky, easy way to check that :)
Last edited by darkker; 12-22-2015 at 01:54 PM. Reason: Always with the spelling...
I'm a firm believer in the theory that if it bleeds, I can kill it.
Well Darkker i guess my question for you is just how would you advise somebody buying say a 338 lapua to go about
working up a load for their particular gun? Assuming of coarse he wants as much performance as he can get out of it.
Which would probably be why most people would buy one in the first place. At what point would you reccomend he stop
stuffing powder into the case?
On a positive note. The two rifles im working with right now arent my prs guns. They, in possession of one only, haven't had a single round through them yet. Im working out the kinks in the act of reloading before I ever start loading for them. Although I will more than likely re barrel the 338 at some point in the future and continue shooting it. The savage creedmoor will go into retirement when its replacement arrives. Since its a limited edition, I want to keep it factory.
Well dark I inspected the chambers and bolt face and they could certainly use a cleaning especially the bolt face. But I ran some of the tumbled brass through the chamber again and the only cases that stuck were among the 6 that stuck originally. So a dirty rifle wasnt the problem.
I have time to be meticulous in the reloading of these cases. And I am going to use the exact same ones so I can see a difference in the way they were prepped. As LR said, I do have a patience issue when range day comes on waiting for the barrel to "cool". That is a vague idea. How cool is cool? Warm to touch but not hot; not warm at all?; 5 minutes no matter how it feels?. If I had to guess at the temp, and I would have to guess since I dont have a ir thermometer, the barrel may get to 130 degrees at its warmest during the latter part of the test and I try not to let the rounds sit in the chamber long at all. But I understand longer is better. By the time I start testing the prs guns I will have the IR thermometer so I can see what the temp is. The magneto speed wont be here till Sat and if its not raining Ill be re shooting.
Again you fellas have been and incredible help and inspiration. And LR, Im not a social person either so If it wasnt for the internet, many people like us wouldnt ask for help and bump along trial and error and take much longer in the school of hard knocks.
On a different note. I dont know how many people have several calibers in different stages of reloading at one time. I seem to have several hundred cases of a handful of calibers at different points in the process. I made up a check card to keep track and keep the check card in the bin with the rounds so that at a glance when I come back in I can pick that process up where I left off. Keeping track of things like how many times fired, 1st tumble,annealing, resize, ultra sonic, dry, 2nd tumble, trimmed, primer pocket. etc. I will eventually laminate several and use a grease pencil
IMHO the school of hard knocks is the best way to learn...when i first started reloading i bought the sierra,nosler,berger,hornady and lee books and spent more than my share of hours reading through them first and then started loading before ever going on line...i got tired of cleaning the factory barrel on my 300wm and thats when i went online looking for a good replacement and discovered all of the conflicting info out there.
i clicked the red X and decided to find out first hand what was what and how things worked in the real world and i will tell you...there is so much miss information online its not funny. i am by NO MEANS an expert on reloading or shooting and thats pretty obvious by the target pictures i post all the time LOL...but what i do know and post is from actual shooting and field testing and trust me ive done some stupid stuff along the way LOL!!
Sooner or later you will either get over some of that or you wont. That will depend on what type of individual you are.
Chances are if your car and shoes are always shiney, then your cases will be also. I rarly ever tumble my cases. Im more
apt to use a mild abrasive pad on the neck and shoulder area and not much else. I will sometimes prep cases to the point
of resizing, checking legnth, and cleaning primer pockets. Those cases are then stored in 50 or 100 round ammo containers
and so marked with masking tape for future loading. Otherwise for me its best to concentrate on one cartridge at a time.
I also do most of the loading for my 2 sons and their kids. The large capacity cases of various type we use for hunting have a
short lifespan due to primer pocket expansion. My routine for those cases differ than others i load. On those i will knock out the
spent primer using a seperate designated press with a decapping die as i do with all the cases i load for. But on those cases i will then
immediatly hand seat a primer. If it goes in real easily i will bang the edge of the case on the bench in an attempt to knock it out.
If that fails i go in with a punch and attempt to push it out. If i can push it out easily i chuck the case rather than waste time prepping it.
Yes i know its a dangerous thing to do, but you can also use an old spent primer to be safe about it. I either completly dispose of that brass
right now, or put it in a zip lock bag well marked so its obvious to anyone what it is. For me, loading isnt a hobby i look foward to doing.
Its a means to an end result i can be satisfied with, and only get by doing it. I guess the emphasis needs to be what we each consider (satisfaction).
i do the same thing in regards to the primer pockets except the pushing with a punch part...i seat all my primers by hand and if they just slide in with no resistance i tap the head on my bench and if it starts to back out i toss it if the primer holds i mark the case shoot it and toss it after that firing.
Thanks to mods to put this in the right spot as they see it.
I think that if people are honest about their mistakes then reading posts like this can greatly speed up the process of learning. As in
diving, I read a lot of post dive reports and what may or may not have lead to the death of fellow tech divers where the learning curve is much more steep and accuracy of reporting and honesty on the boards is tantamount.
What kills me is the guy that just pops in and says Hey what load are you using?
That's like saying Hey what mix should I use on this dive?
I just get a feel for who does their homework.
Yobucks post above pretty much mirrors my thoughts.
I don't clean brass often at all. With my only sentimental rifle, Painless(10fp .308) I actually had a count going for rounds shot, and times reloaded on the brass. But it got to the point that it was a distraction from shooting and having fun. A pile of that 308 brass is over 40 reloads, a pile of my Creedmoor is over 20. Then some fail FAR short of that, other than a mental note to track the obscenely short lived; I don't loose much sleep over it either way.
Yo,
To your question about how someone should work a load, and know when to stop. It's like I said in my posts(a bit long winded), watch the velocities. Those are the best indicator(short of actually measuring) of what pressure you are running. If someone knows they are over-loading, but chooses to continue I'm OK with that.
Much like doctnj wrote: "Hey what load are you using". Those are the people who have no clue what they are doing, honestly don't seem interested in learning but follow the pack. They push(just as an example) the Creedmoor 200 fps faster than ANY data, then proceed to whine that brand X brass is crap because the primer pockets got loose after 5 loads.
Everything in life has trade-offs, Just need to understand the choices and live with the outcomes.
I'm a firm believer in the theory that if it bleeds, I can kill it.
Well I already have 150 creedmoor brass sized trimmed, primed and ready to load but for this test sake I want to use the exact same ones so that I can trace back all the steps that happened to THEM to get to the point of the test that way I know that the results came about by x,y,z. Same with the 338.
I would hope at 400 yrds you would say its ok to at least be shooting at a 1" square for target? With that particular scope I wont be able to see anything smaller.
if your referring to a ladder test i draw a thick line vertically across the target about a 1/4 of the way up from the bottom...use a 2'wx4't piece of plywood with white paper and use colored markers to paint the bullets...your not shooting groups...you load 5 or so at the lowest charge and get on target let the barrel cool and then shoot 1 round from the lowest charge weight up to the highest charge weight using the same point of aim...so your shots are going to climb as you shoot..do not adjust the scope...the only thing you are looking for is a water line(vertical grouping)nothing else...like this....
3-4 and 5 are the charge weights with 3 most likely being the best you then play with seating depth neck tension primers and possible a different powder...keep in mind if theres wind or your not a pretty good trigger man the test will not be accurate....ladders IMHO are for bench rest guys and F-class shooters that have rebarreled and are using the same components not so much for a guy new to reloading but give it a try and post the results.
I used to go for the 1 more time approach also. I also know guys who smear some super glue around the primer.
But none of our large capacity guns are on Savage actions. Therefore a scarred bolt face isnt an easy fix.
Brass is expendable, and simply adds to the cost of using those type cartridges when using max loads.
As for the 338 cartridges, they should be considered hunting cartridges and not target cartridges.
You will not find serious long range target shooters using any 338s. I personaly would be very happy with a half minit
of angle group with a 338 Lapua or any large capacity case. I would also be shooting 3 shot groups and not 5 with any of the large capacity cases.
Whats to prove by it anyway unless your competing.
I have friends who are now mostly ex long range target shooters. Ive picked up some good tips from them which would be helpful if i remember
to use them. One is to use various colored sharpies to color the primer for the amount of times the case has been fired. That way you know at a glance
what ammo your looking at.
Oh good yes the standard ladder tes as its called. Its been re-thought and yet another technique worked up by a fellow named Newberry or something like that where targets were arranged across top and bottom of a single sheet and each string consisted of rounds from the minimal charge to the maximum charge were the rounds to be included in that stream. After learning the basic ladder test you talk about , then the neberry method I was just about ready to go to the range. Then these demi gods on another site called their technique "Newberry Like" I could make real identification with this one. All with the idea in mind of removing most of the influences of the shooter and many and or all current atmospheric conditions by shooting everything at 100 yrds no matter what the caliber.
Then the 65 guys stepped in with yet another way of changing the test and making it something you can hardly recognized from the earlier simple ladder test. They said that Newberries idea was to try and minimize in put from the shooter that could affect the outcome. They suggest firing all similar charge loads at a single point of aim with a new target for each charge load. to minimize re building position between each shot.
Personally I can see good parts in all of it. I am currently in the process of brass prep and re loading. The wow and why of the test will be decided later. Although right or wrong I am leaning toward the method I have already done so that I can better see a difference and judge apples to apples.
flame away.
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