Molten Metal Balls Exiting Receiver

PESCAHOLIC · 11-11-2015, 11:32 PM

Hello all,

New to the forum and seeking advice from those with experience. ...Sorry for the links, but I couldn't figure out how to link or insert photos here.

I have been hunting my whole life and own many weapons, but this our first Savage.

My daughter won a 7MM-08 AXIS at a youth deer hunt a few years ago; it fits her perfectly and seems to be very smooth. In preparation for her upcoming hunt next week we were out at the range last week and I noticed the cartridges were becoming more and more difficult to remove from the receiver - even after allowing the gun to cool.

We came home and I cleaned the gun and we returned to the range today. She was using Fusion 120 grain the first time it hung up and we switched to Hornady Whitetail 140 grain today. After approx 25 rounds today (allowing time to cool) the cartridges began hanging up again in the receiver so I cleaned it briefly which helped a little. After another 15 rounds it was the same thing again - cartridge hanging in the receiver. So we shut it down.

As we were cleaning up at the range I noticed that a few primers had been knocked out of the cartridges and also noticed that many cartridges showed signs of gas passing through the primer, which I understand to mean that the load is too hot (too much powder), or that there is a problem with the weapon. Since it's factory ammo I don't suspect it is the ammo...but I've been wrong once before in my life!

Anyways, I came home and removed the stock to clean it again and see if I could find the problem. What I found were micro sized balls of molten steel as you'll see in the photos below. I know it's not lead because it is magnetic and I cannot smash it with pliers.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/481541...posted-public/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/481541...posted-public/
[img]https://www.flickr.com/photos/481541...posted-public/[img]

<img alt="" src="https://www.flickr.com/photos/481541...posted-public/" border="0">
Any ideas as to what is causing this issue?

Thank you in advance.

Rob

**blfuller** · 11-12-2015, 01:12 AM

Those are actually balls from bead blasting the action to give it a matte finish. They are not a byproduct of your ammo issue. My Savage had some in it as well. They get caught in the nooks and crannies of the receiver and are loosened up by firing. You might try blowing the receiver out with high pressure air to dislodge the rest of them.

**J.Baker** · 11-12-2015, 02:21 AM

Yep, those are from bead blasting. The assembled barreled action is bead blasted as a unit and as noted they get stuck in the nooks and crannies.

As for the hard extraction issue, the blown primers clearly indicate high pressure which is what's causing the problem. If it happened with every round fired I might suspect the gun, but this sounds more like an ammo consistency problem. I would recommend contacting the manufacturer to let them know of the issue, and they will want the lot number off the box(s). If for no other reason than your own peace of mind you could also take it to a gunsmith and have them verify the headspace and borescope the barrel just to make sure everything is as it should be.

PESCAHOLIC · 11-12-2015, 02:22 AM

Originally Posted by blfuller

Those are actually balls from bead blasting the action to give it a matte finish. They are not a byproduct of your ammo issue. My Savage had some in it as well. They get caught in the nooks and crannies of the receiver and are loosened up by firing. You might try blowing the receiver out with high pressure air to dislodge the rest of them.

That's exactly what it looks like - bead blast media. I wouldn't expect to see that even in a low end gun, but it certainly does look like that's what it is.

If that's the case, we still have a receiver issue. Ideas?

Thank you.

PESCAHOLIC · 11-12-2015, 02:27 AM

Originally Posted by MrFurious

Yep, those are from bead blasting. The assembled barreled action is bead blasted as a unit and as noted they get stuck in the nooks and crannies.

As for the hard extraction issue, the blown primers clearly indicate high pressure which is what's causing the problem. If it happened with every round fired I might suspect the gun, but this sounds more like an ammo consistency problem. I would recommend contacting the manufacturer to let them know of the issue, and they will want the lot number off the box(s). If for no other reason than your own peace of mind you could also take it to a gunsmith and have them verify the headspace and borescope the barrel just to make sure everything is as it should be.

Thanks for the confirmation. I am taking it to gunsmith tomorrow. Meanwhile, it happened with two different brands and sizes of ammo and the cartridges are getting stuck. I guess it's not impossible that a bead or two is hanging the cartridge up and also, could conceivably be preventing the cartridge from seating properly and causing the pressure issues?

**DrThunder88** · 11-12-2015, 07:23 AM

I'd be looking for marks in the brass about the size and shape of the balls. Similarly, they should come out with normal chamber cleaning. If there are loose balls inside the receiver, it may be that a loose one worked its way between the bolt lugs and the shelf. Maybe blast the lug recesses with brake cleaner. I use an AR-10 chamber brush on a short rod when cleaning my 308-family chambers and lug recesses. Check the bolt head and its lugs for damage or wear consistent with the balls.

Take a look at the primary extraction ramp on the bolt handle and its contact surface on the receiver as well. Looks for damage or unusual looking wear.

PESCAHOLIC · 11-12-2015, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by DrThunder88

I'd be looking for marks in the brass about the size and shape of the balls. Similarly, they should come out with normal chamber cleaning. If there are loose balls inside the receiver, it may be that a loose one worked its way between the bolt lugs and the shelf. Maybe blast the lug recesses with brake cleaner. I use an AR-10 chamber brush on a short rod when cleaning my 308-family chambers and lug recesses. Check the bolt head and its lugs for damage or wear consistent with the balls.

Take a look at the primary extraction ramp on the bolt handle and its contact surface on the receiver as well. Looks for damage or unusual looking wear.

I think you are on-track here.

I am taking it to a gunsmith today.

After looking at some of the cartridges this morning I did see a similar mark on many of them so I assume there is an anomaly in the receiver that may explain many of the issues. I'm not qualified to deal with head spacing and chamber work but trust my gunsmith will be able to deal with the issue.

Thanks again for the feedback; I'll follow-up when I have an answer.

Rob

**big honkin jeep** · 11-12-2015, 01:39 PM

If It's magnetic, I'd probably run a magnetic pick up tool in there and see if I could get it out.
Sounds like after the trip to the smith I'd probably send a small sample to the manufacturer to see what they have to say. Maybe they'll pick up the tab. At least they'll be aware of a possible QC problem.

PESCAHOLIC · 11-12-2015, 07:18 PM

The trip to Bolsa Gunsmithing was not good. When I called yesterday afternoon they said they would look at it right away and would make every effort to have it ready for next Wednesday unless it was catastrophic or a parts issue. When I arrived the story was a little different...

After using and referring them exclusively for 30 years, today was the 3rd (and final) time I've been made to feel like a dick while I'm there because I am not a gun expert. It didn't help that there were 5 people behind the counter and 1 guy on the phone...but all were too busy shooting the **** while I sat there with my thumb in my ass. And when another customer walked in they went straight to him while I continued to enjoy my thumb.

After dropping it off and driving away, I decided I was done with them and returned to pick it up and called Savage instead.

Savage customer service was good. They are sending me a shipping label and will look at and probably repair the gun, even though it's out of warranty. They said that the blast material was probably a separate incident from the over pressure issue, which I can't argue about. They mentioned that the blasting occurs after the barrel is secured so there shouldn't be any media in the threads.

Meanwhile....and I know this will be surprise to most given what I've read about over pressure, but Savage said that the gun was still safe to shoot as long as nothing is lodged in the barrel.

However, I have no plans to shoot it and will be shipping it to Savage soon. Meanwhile, I need to find my daughter another gun for her hunt next week or put her on my .30-06

Thanks again for your feedback on the issue; I'll follow-up again when it's all resolved.

Rob

**LoneWolf** · 11-12-2015, 07:29 PM

Just so you're aware and I know many will concur. Despite what the Savage rep says, every factory barrel I've pulled from a Savage action had blasting media in the threads. However, I never had an issue with it in the chamber area before. Hopefully, they take care of you and are fair about it!

PESCAHOLIC · 11-12-2015, 07:43 PM

Originally Posted by LoneWolf

Just so you're aware and I know many will concur. Despite what the Savage rep says, every factory barrel I've pulled from a Savage action had blasting media in the threads. However, I never had an issue with it in the chamber area before. Hopefully, they take care of you and are fair about it!

Looking at it again in the sunlight I am seeing that indeed, there is a burr in the barrel end (where it meets the bolt face) which matches the marks on the casings. It looks like something I can gently file/sand down so I might try that out. Will post photos momentarily. - is there a way to upload photos directly or do they need to be hosted and linked?

PESCAHOLIC · 11-12-2015, 08:01 PM

Originally Posted by LoneWolf

Just so you're aware and I know many will concur. Despite what the Savage rep says, every factory barrel I've pulled from a Savage action had blasting media in the threads. However, I never had an issue with it in the chamber area before. Hopefully, they take care of you and are fair about it!

Looking at it again in the sunlight I am seeing that indeed, there is a burr in the barrel end (where it meets the bolt face) which matches the marks on the casings. It looks like something I can gently file/sand down so I might try that out.

Savage Axis.20151112_153520 by Bluewater Rob, on Flickr

Savage Axis.20151112_153611-1-1 by Bluewater Rob, on Flickr

**big honkin jeep** · 11-12-2015, 08:48 PM

Without looking closer (pretty darn good pics) it appears to me that some of the media was crushed against the face and locking lugs and that the "burr you're referring to may be a chip.
Either way I think I'd let Savage have it before trying to remedy it yourself with anything abrasive. That way there can be no argument as to the responsibility for any damage or that you caused the chip.

PESCAHOLIC · 11-12-2015, 08:57 PM

Originally Posted by big honkin jeep

Without looking closer (pretty darn good pics) it appears to me that some of the media was crushed against the face and locking lugs and that the "burr you're referring to may be a chip.
Either way I think I'd let Savage have it before trying to remedy it yourself with anything abrasive. That way there can be no argument as to the responsibility for any damage or that you caused the chip.

The photos are courtesy of Samsung.

Savage did say they would still take care of it if we tried to repair and were unsuccessful - great customer service right there.

Good news in that I found a gunsmith willing to make the effort to deal with the issue before her hunt. No guaranty of course that it can be remedied without substantial work, in which case it will end up going back to Savage. But at least someone qualified and experienced with Savage will make the effort and make sure it's safe.

Thanks again and I'll follow-up when I know more.

**Rick_W** · 11-12-2015, 09:02 PM

Originally Posted by PESCAHOLIC

The photos are courtesy of Samsung.

Savage did say they would still take care of it if we tried to repair and were unsuccessful - great customer service right there.

Good news in that I found a gunsmith willing to make the effort to deal with the issue before her hunt. No guaranty of course that it can be remedied without substantial work, in which case it will end up going back to Savage. But at least someone qualified and experienced with Savage will make the effort and make sure it's safe.

Thanks again and I'll follow-up when I know more.

If your gunsmith will allow it - try to watch him take it apart, examine it, and then put it back together.

There's nothing substantial about building a Savage if the parts are all in spec.

But be careful going down that road...

**DrThunder88** · 11-13-2015, 04:42 AM

Is it possible that, as the shell casing expands under the firing load, the brass in the base flows into the little divot on the edge of the chamber? A progressive degradation of the chipped area could explain why the bolt got harder to open in stages too. This points to a void or other defect in the barrel steel more than damage caused by blast media, though that could have been a contributing factor.

If it is the case that brass is expanding into the chip, I think replacement may be the best option if only because of the questionable quality of the steel. Abrasives may make it smoother, but the overall volume of the divot will necessarily go up. This could mean a larger bulge and an even stickier bolt. The smith could turn the breech end of the barrel down until the chip is gone and then re-chamber, but that's going to be a lot of work for a problem the factory probably should fix.

And those are good pics of something that's not easy to photograph.

PESCAHOLIC · 11-13-2015, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by DrThunder88

Is it possible that, as the shell casing expands under the firing load, the brass in the base flows into the little divot on the edge of the chamber? A progressive degradation of the chipped area could explain why the bolt got harder to open in stages too. This points to a void or other defect in the barrel steel more than damage caused by blast media, though that could have been a contributing factor.

If it is the case that brass is expanding into the chip, I think replacement may be the best option if only because of the questionable quality of the steel. Abrasives may make it smoother, but the overall volume of the divot will necessarily go up. This could mean a larger bulge and an even stickier bolt. The smith could turn the breech end of the barrel down until the chip is gone and then re-chamber, but that's going to be a lot of work for a problem the factory probably should fix.

And those are good pics of something that's not easy to photograph.

Hard to argue that synopsis - it certainly seems plausible.

Meeting with a gunsmith this afternoon and will follow-up again then.

As for the photos, I've shot more than 100,000 pictures (sports) with nice Nikon gear and cannot get the same quality as my Samsung provides for shots like this.

**JASmith** · 11-13-2015, 10:03 PM

The gunsmith may be be able to do a fine job. Shipping the rifle to Savage, however, seems to be the most sensible path. Savage can do everything from what your gunsmith can do all the way to replacing the entire rifle, depending on what procedures are least expensive to them.

Regarding your daughter and the 30-06, you can get her "managed recoil" ammunition with bullets in the 125 gr weight class and modest muzzle velocities. This ammunition will do an excellent job on deer while treating her shoulder (or yours) much more kindly and gently.

PESCAHOLIC · 11-14-2015, 02:16 AM

The gunsmith polished the chamber and is 99% sure it will cure the hanging cartridge issue.

As for the pressure, we're hoping it was related to the chamber issue but I'll be shooting it on Saturday to see what happens. There was a buildup of copper which I had not done a great job of removing previously, so I'm hoping between that and the chamber we will be good to go.

PESCAHOLIC · 11-14-2015, 11:20 PM

It's all good thanks to Jesse Smith at Best Shot in Peoria. Not only did he accommodate us, but he taught me a lot about this gun, shooting and guns in general...and he didn't gouge me either!

I shot 26 rounds today and it was VERY smooth! Seems that cleaning the burr in the chamber cured the ejection/hanging issue (and maybe some of the pressure issues as the cartridge was not seating well), and de-fouling certainly didn't hurt with the pressure issue. Also changed ammo to Barnes Vort-X 120's which the gun seems to really like. Very smooth and dead on at 350 yards.

Hope to get a trigger in it on Tuesday so she can make some shots and get it dialed before her hunt starts on Friday.

As for the blasting media, as many here stated Jesse said it's not unheard of and it seems to have cleared, too.

Thank you again for all of the feedback and if you need a 'smith in the Phoenix area I highly recommend Jesse!

Rob

**big honkin jeep** · 11-15-2015, 01:08 PM

Cool, glad to hear you got her fixed up. was he able to get the remainder of the blast media out of it? If so what steps did he take?
Thanks

**DrThunder88** · 11-15-2015, 08:32 PM

Glad to hear it PESCAHOLIC. I'm also glad that it didn't require replacement.

PESCAHOLIC · 11-16-2015, 02:34 AM

Originally Posted by big honkin jeep

Cool, glad to hear you got her fixed up. was he able to get the remainder of the blast media out of it? If so what steps did he take?
Thanks

He did not remove any media. According to Savage, the media is used after the barrel and receiver are joined so any remaining media would be outside (basically where it was first discovered as noted in my initial photos).