Reply With QuoteFor sure. Have it fully inspected!
Guy shooting max loads out of a Savage .243 then switched to a same load but with magnum primer (not sure if it was an accident or what). Poof of smoke from the chamber and when he tried to eject the brass, the extractor was missing from the bolt. Never found the primer, cartridge still in chamber. Extractor, ball and spring fell out of the magazine with a good shaking.
I disassembled the bolt for him with great difficulty. Rear retainer bolt threads as well as bolt body threads almost completely stripped out. Bolt face has depression at firing pin hole, and ejector pin buried in its hole. Owner says bolt was never disassembled prior to this incident. I'm thinking that this guy nearly got it in the face by a retainer bolt, if that's even a possible failure scenario in an overpressure event.
What is protocol in this situation? Is a thorough inspection by a gunsmith always indicated?
Just curious.
For sure. Have it fully inspected!
Thanks, lone Wolf, I suggested that too, but maybe I should have instead offered to buy it cheap. LOL
Is a bolt failure like I described a possibly? Or is there another explanation for stripped bolt threads, I mean besides poor quality control ?
Anything is possible with a contained explosion. Savage actions are the lowest costing action for a reason. Pressure specs are even more important in that case.
Factory proof loads are typically 25-30% over SAAMI's maximum pressure spec for the cartridge. Max spec for the .243 Win is 60,000 PSI which would put the factory proof rounds in the 75,000 to 78,000 PSI range. I have a hard time believing a magnum primer could result in a 20,000+ PSI spike in pressure. The A-Square Company once conducted pressure tests involving six different primers. These tests used the 7mm Remington Magnum cartridge with a 160 grain Sierra BT bullet and 66.0 grains of H4831 powder and the results were reported in the A-Square reloading manual Any Shot You Want. A-Square used CCI 200 and 250, Federal 215, Remington 9 1/2M, and Winchester WLRM and WLR primers in these tests. They revealed a total spread in pressure of 12,800 psi from the mildest standard (the CCI 200) to the hottest magnum (WLRM) primer tested.
"Life' is tough. It's even tougher if you're stupid." ~ John Wayne
“Under certain circumstances, urgent circumstances, desperate circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.” —Mark Twain
I don't think he was shooting factory loads in this case, states first line " max loads"
Sounds like he was beyond max. before he added in the magnum primer.
I agree, there was more to it.
Nobody said he was. I was talking about factory PROOF loads which are much higher pressure than factory loads or any reloading data you'll find in any manual. The factory uses proof loads to stress test every single barreled action that leaves the factory to ensure they're plenty strong enough to hold up to "normal" pressure loads. Hence the "SP" (Savage Proof) stamp on every factory Savage barrel.Originally Posted by LoneWolf
My point was that the load in question would have greatly exceeded the pressure of factory proof loads to cause such damage, and tests have proven that a simple switch from a standard to magnum primer alone wouldn't have resulted in a large enough pressure change to exceed proof load pressures to cause such damage, thus there had to be one or more additional contributing factors.
"Life' is tough. It's even tougher if you're stupid." ~ John Wayne
“Under certain circumstances, urgent circumstances, desperate circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.” —Mark Twain
Good info Jim. Thanks for expanding, I should have familiarized myself with the term "Proof loads".
Sounds to me more of a gun issue than a load issue. You almost have to be trying to blow up an action like that.
Its only a matter of time till a kook built gun bought in a pawn shop kills somebody. Look at this as a lesson learned.
What do we know about the history of the gun itself? Pretty substantial damage to the bolt, especially the threads, and a depression in the bolt head!?. How did the cartridge look other than missing the primer? What is missing from this story?
Exactly, Youbuck, so what might be going on here? As I recall the incident now, I did look at the spent cartridges he'd been shooting prior the overpressure incident, and could see cratered primers as well as ejector marks in the case heads, so even thou he claimed he was loading a half grain below max per loading manual, I could see he was already experiencing severe overpressure before he fired the magnum primer load.
I had never seen an ejector mark in case head prior to this day, so it was ironic that just a few minutes prior to looking at this guys 243 brass, ANOTHER shooter showed me his custom built 300 WSM brass with tell tale ejector marks (circles). He was a long time re-loader and had multiple custom built guns, but was "at whits end" regarding lack of accuracy with the gun he was shooting (1 to 2 moa) and experiencing overpressure with loads well below max book.
Some people make reloading more difficult than it is and will tell you their doing everything right when they really aren't!
These are all good reasons why I would never shoot someone else's reloads.
obviously pressure played a part but it sounds more like a bad bolt to me and i bet the firing pin pierced the primer and caused most of the damage to the small parts...the stripped retaining bolt and body sounds more like someone took it apart and cross threaded it back in ...ive shot some VERY VERY high pressure loads through both of my actions and have only had a broken ejector pin..im not saying its ok to do im just saying ive done it.
I don't know LR, without knowing the history I would say this guy probably has done a number of things incorrectly for an extended period of time and is lucky his wasn't a worse experience than it turned out to be. He should probably have it inspected by a smith, repaired if still safe, take a class on gun handling and disassembly, and a reloading class if he can find one.
Some people just aren't very good at DIY...
I agree with LongRange. Seems to me that it would take a tremendous amount of pressure inside the bolt to damage those threads if they were in good shape before. The basic design of the bolt has proven itself over decades of use and abuse. Are the two guys that were both having overpressure problems connected in any way? LoneWolf, I suspect that you hit the nail on the head.
i agree 100% it should be inspected before using it again and maybe the guy was doing things wrong...if it were me id cut the action in half and buy a new one...but if you think about the bolt body and retaining bolt being stripped i think it would take more over pressure than the action and chamber could handle to strip the threads...maybe it has been loose for a long time?
For sure!if it were me id cut the action in half and buy a new one
I think you may be right. Probably the least checked part on a Savage action.maybe it has been loose for a long time?
By the time you replace the bolt and related components, and pay to have the action inspected (including magnaflux) a new complete rifle would be cheaper.
Guess I'll throw the pics of my .204 Ruger Belted Magnum up again...
This pretty much caused a similar event as mentioned in the original post minus the damaged bolt head and BAS screw threads. Where the case rim is blown out in the second photo is the area that pushed out into the extractor slot in the bolt head, pushing the extractor outward accordingly. That portion of the case head was actually retaining the spring and detent ball, and the extractor was pushed out far enough to prevent the bolt from being able to turn. Ejector was jammed back in it's pocket as you would expect. Had to disassemble the bolt in the rifle and then pop the case out with a cleaning rod. Primer was not pierced.
Still not sure what happened with this one as I was loading 40gr V-max's with 28.2 grains of Varget, which is a compressed load and just 0.1 grain over published max. I didn't get any pressure signs with this load when doing my ladder test, and I'd shot several groups with this same load just prior to shooting this round. I can only presume that I had a bit of powder hang up in my powder measure from the previous round that caused this one to be slightly over. Given the size of Varget and it already being a compressed load you would think I would have noticed the powder sitting slightly higher in the neck if that were the case, but maybe not.
"Life' is tough. It's even tougher if you're stupid." ~ John Wayne
“Under certain circumstances, urgent circumstances, desperate circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.” —Mark Twain
I just read this. Savage actions are lower priced than others but, I would say that they'll hold up. I've shot some pretty "hot" loads through my old 111 in 7mm Rem and its held up pretty good over the years. Agree with several statements given. Someone will get their face blown off by not just checking their rifle over once in awhile. If you don't know what to look for, find someone who does. Same with reloading. Max recommended loads are just that, not a starting point. Take a class, buy a book, do something but, do it safe. You not only put yourself at risk but, could potentially put others there as well.
maybe a big internal case capacity difference JB?
Serious over pressure like this (if that's the case) sounds like possibly more than one powder on the bench, in the thrower, or trickler.
Or maybe some of the wrong stuff made it's way back into the container and then into the case due to sloppy reloading practices or other negligence.
Just a theory, but a sure way to tear up equipment/blow yourself up.
A rifle sized charge of the wrong powder especially pistol powder or even a blend is a case full of sho nuff dangerous.
A good wife and a steady job has ruined many a great hunter.
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