Traditional Tongue oil vs resin stabilization?

**Texas10** · 08-30-2015, 03:56 PM

I'm about to buy a couple of stocks for my model 12s. I'll get a Boyds or E.Arthur Brown for the 12 FV, but for the 12 BVSS I'd like to start with a raw stock and do the finishing myself.
I've seen the numerous articles and Youtube videos about traditional oil finish, and oil and polyurethane finishing. And I've read how those do nothing to stabilize a piece of wood against temperature and moisture changes.
Laminate stocks are less prone to warping, but they seem to be much more prone to cracking along laminates, and won't hold trigger screws well simply due to grain direction issues.
Then came a conversation with a friend who makes knifes as a hobby. He showed me a new knife he'd made with scales made of "snake wood". It was quite beautiful and the wood looked like it was made of plastic. He described how he "stabilizes" the rare woods he buys by soaking in a resin in a sealed chamber and drawing a vacuum for several hours to remove all air in the wood. This allows the resin to penetrate the wood fully. Once removed, it is placed in a curing oven at 250 F for several hours, then sanded smooth out to 1500 grit and buffed. No warping, no worry about water swelling, or cracking. It is absolutely weather proof because at this point it has been transformed into a composite material. A type of wood fiber reinforced resin.
Which got me to thinking about finishing a wood laminate stock using this method.
Anyone tried it?
There will be some significant weight gain, about 50% i'm told due to resin absorption.

Any comments are welcome!

**darkker** · 08-31-2015, 12:02 AM

Anyone tells you a tung oil/ poly sealed stock will move, is either sellng something, did it wrong.
Also never known a quality laminate to split along lamination lines.

**foxx** · 08-31-2015, 12:08 AM

You can buy inexpensive laminates that tend to split along lamination lines under certain circumstances. Boyds comes to mind.

I am curious to hear any opinions of your "novel" idea.

**DrThunder88** · 08-31-2015, 02:55 AM

I'm sort of familiar with stabilized woods and some methods for producing ersatz resin impregnated wood for knife handles. Whether or not this would scale well for something the size and shape of a gunstock, I have no idea. I suspect it wouldn't come cheap though and that its performance not be likely to exceed that of metal or even epoxy when it comes to the most important aspect of the stock, its bedding.

There is, of course, a wood-filled resin material that had been used for gunstocks for a period: Bakelite (and for the Czechs: beaver barf). Bakelite, however, never seems to have been the next big thing for full rifle stocks, especially compared to resin impregnated fiberglass and fiberglass impregnated resins. Resin impregnated wood has one thing these other materials don't have: weight. Lots of it, even compared to wood. There are cases where added weight could be a good thing, but trends seem to be pushing toward lighter guns or spending more of the gross weight in other areas.

**olddav** · 08-31-2015, 10:35 AM

Could any effort to stabilize a laminated stock via resin impregnation be successful? Would not the glue applied to the layers of wood resist further penatration by the resin? I don't have answers but I do have questions.

**Texas10** · 08-31-2015, 05:59 PM

I ordered a thumbhole target style stock from Richards Micro-fit stocks ( http://www.rifle-stocks.com/target_style's.htm )
and they will send me a sample of the laminated stock material.
The stock will take 8 to 10 weeks to make, so I've got plenty of time for experimentation.
I did look at a Boyds today at the range. It was only a couple years old and the finish was deteriorating in the area where the laminates feather edged out. I suspect the adhesive used to laminate the wood was being effected by ultra-violet penetrating through the finish. It was "extra glossy" according to the owner, but look fairly satin to me. He claimed it shot really well though, much better than the original stock with the rest he was using. It was a 22LR.

I'll be ordering a Boyds in a few days to put on the 12FV. We'll see how they compare.

**darkker** · 09-01-2015, 02:39 AM

Just remember Foxx that Boyd's doesn't "make" anything. They buy blanks from Rutland Plywood Corp just like everyone else. RPC sells 98% of any laminate in the US, various companies simply inlet and finish them.
Perhaps Boyd's specs a cheaper blank, that I don't know. But been beating on many of their stocks for a long time without that issue. Again unless you chisel through the finish, then all bets are off.

**rjtfroggy** · 09-01-2015, 06:38 AM

Unless Boyd's had a ware house full they aren't using Rutland laminate anymore. Rutland burned to the ground a year ago with no plans to rebuild.

**yobuck** · 09-01-2015, 09:25 AM

Rutland made the pretty multi colored ones but they certainly werent the originator or only maker of laminate stocks.
I still have and use a gun having a heavy bench stock from the old Bishop gun stock company.
1/16 laminates of maple and walnut which was about all you could get then. Fajen ultimatly bought Bishop
and both seem to have dissapeared. Richards has also been making stocks for a very long time. The last inletted stock
i got from them was about 5 years ago and the word (crude) dosent quite describe it. I think they used a dull chain saw
on the duplicating.

**foxx** · 09-01-2015, 10:17 AM

Originally Posted by darkker

Perhaps Boyd's specs a cheaper blank, that I don't know. But been beating on many of their stocks for a long time without that issue. Again unless you chisel through the finish, then all bets are off.

Yeah, I like Boyds' stocks, too. But some tend to split near the action screw holes. I have opened up a few of them, particularly when prepping for pillaring and bedding. They can be repaired, of course, and I have made a few repairs quite successfully. Just saying it happens and it's okay.

**Txhillbilly** · 09-01-2015, 09:42 PM

I've got several Boyd's stocks,and have finished everyone of them myself. I use Tung oil,and always hand rub 10 coats of oil on the stocks,and wet sand between coats using tung oil and sandpaper to wet sand it. A couple of the stocks are at least 10 years old,and I've never had any problems with them spliting or de-laminating.

**sharpshooter** · 09-02-2015, 10:19 PM

One reason they split is moisture content. The last ones I checked were 12-13%. I have also heard rumors that what Boyds got from Rutland was not Stratobond, but a less expensive grade.

**upSLIDEdown** · 09-03-2015, 02:58 AM

Tongue. Lol Sorry, but every time I see this thread title in the New Posts list I laugh.

Carry on.

**Dewey7271** · 09-03-2015, 01:00 PM

Could any effort to stabilize a laminated stock via resin impregnation be successful? Would not the glue applied to the layers of wood resist further penatration by the resin?

Depends on what glue they used to laminate. If it is truly a waterproof glue then the impregnation of the wood won't hurt it. We have found the same thing in making and impregnating bamboo fly rods. The glue I use is a marine version or glue used for wooden boats. Many of the epoxies will resist delamination as will a couple of the old urea formaldehyde glues (resorcinol is one)
Just depends on what you want to glue.
On the original post unless your agent that you are using to impregnate is very thin then pulling vacuum for a couple hours isn't going to get it, at least not completely. If your objective is to impreg the outer layer then yes, a couple hours may work.
One thing you may not have considered is drying time once saturated. It takes a very long time for many of the resins or agents used to impreg wood to dry and completely set. Just because the outside is dry does not mean the inside is. Think of ice over mud after a freeze. It looks and feels hard on top but you can sink to your knees in the unforozen part under it. Same kind of thing here.
Stabilization is probably a good thing if you're really going to be out in the elements a bunch and leave the rifle exposed over long periods of time.
If that isn't the case, go to a woodworking store and buy some Waterlox Sealer/Finish. It is tung based and is good stuff. You can wipe it on. One layer will not do. I would suggest 6 or more, with time for it to set in between. It is a process, not an event. I would do some 4/0 steel wool in between after it is set up and refinish.
After the sealer finish part is done, put a good varnish (tung based or at least oil based) on top, doing the same thing. Multiple thin coats either lightly sanded with superfine sand paper or 4/0 steel wool in between.
The Waterlox Varnish is good. Perhaps the best with a high solids content is a fairly hard to find and expensive spar varnish call Epifanes. Good stuff.
Lastly, be aware if you do go the impregnation route that there will be a slight weight increase once impregnated and as mentioned before, it will take quite a while to set.

**Dewey7271** · 09-03-2015, 01:04 PM

I've got several Boyd's stocks,and have finished everyone of them myself. I use Tung oil,and always hand rub 10 coats of oil on the stocks,and wet sand between coats using tung oil and sandpaper to wet sand it. A couple of the stocks are at least 10 years old,and I've never had any problems with them spliting or de-laminating.

Whoops.
Txhillbilly, didn't see your post on how to put on tung. Well said. Sorry I was redundant.