So here is what I have done so far-
- Lapua Brass
- Case trimmed wth Sinclair Neck trimmer 1.750
- Flash hole deburred with K&M tool
- Primer pocket trimmed using K&M tool
- Neck turned to .012 +-.0005- using K&M tool
- 1.990 (.002 off the lands) Seated 77 gn Sierra Match King bullet using RCBS competition Seating die (Lands measurement taken using Hornady tool-1.992 to the lands)
- Tried Remington Benchrest 7 1/2 & CCI BR-4 Primers
- Tried Hodgdons Bechmark, Reload 15, 8208 XBR
Rifle
Savage 11 .223 replaced barrel with Shilen .223 Wylde barrel and replaced stock with Choate tactical stock.
Shilen Barrel Savage 110 Series Small Shank 223 Remington (Wylde) Varmint Contour 1 in 8" Twist 26" Stainless Steel
My goal is to consistently get below standard deviation of 10, but have not reached it. I have checked by weight and volume and I have yet to see a correlation. I have also checked for run out (using Hornady Concentricity gauge) and it is below .001
What else can I do?
Is a there a trick of the trade for precision loads?
I know someone will say Muzzle velocity does not matter, but I like to tinker and would like to master the practice of reducing this variable to below standard deviation of 10.
Range data form 8/2/15- 5 shot groups with approximately 10 minutes cool off between shots (with a few exceptions)
*1st shot is cold bore
No. Muzzel V. Amb. Temp Time avg stdev 1 *2812 80.9 9:31 AM 2 2867 3 2879 4 2879 5 2892 9:37 AM 2866 31 6 2898 76.8 9:48 AM 7 2867 8 2886 9 2861 10 2855 76.6 9:54 AM 2873 18 11 2892 12 2879 13 2898 14 2867 15 2886 2884 12 16 2886 76.2 10:13 AM 17 2886 18 2861 19 2855 20 2886 76.6 10:17 AM 2875 15 21 2867 10:18 AM 22 2898 23 2861 24 2904 25 2861 2878 21 26 2917 27 2861 28 2873 29 2855 30 2904 2882 27 31 2849 32 2898 33 2898 34 2892 2888 22
Last edited by ivanpros; 08-16-2015 at 05:05 PM.
What is the target telling you? You can go crazy chasing low ES. Many times I've found that loads with higher SD/ES print better groups at longer range than the quest your "shooting" for. I test all my 223 loads at 200 yards initially and retest at 300 to get a good idea if the load is going to be consistently accurate.
i dont shoot a 223 but have several questions for you....
how much neck tension are you using?
at .002 off the lands are you measuring EVERY round? are all your measurements off the Ogive? or COAL?
what tool are you using to seat your primers? do you seat your primers with a light seat or really sink them in?
are you full length resizing every time or neck sizing? if neck sizing are you using a bushing die? if using a bushing die have you checked for doughnuts?
you say you have checked weight and volume...does this mean you have weighed your cases with H2O?
stupid question here....im guessing you chamfer inside/outside necks after trimming? do you trim necks every time?
do you tumble your brass every time?
since the barrel was new have you re-checked your bullet to land measurements?
did the data above start with a CLEAN bore or fouled bore?
and last is the data above with different powders/primers or was that all the same load? and what are you using to weigh your charges?
I like to tinker and would like to master the practice of reducing this variable to below standard deviation of 10. So I take it what you are telling me is that it is not possible?Originally Posted by GaCop
Thank you for all the good questions. I think you brought up a good point. If you look at the data it starts open and closes for shot 15-25. I will need to investigate this. a day at the range on 7/26 gave me low number for shot 1-5 and 31-40.
Only other thing I can think is the competition chronograph, but I used black foam board on the sides and it stopped giving me errors since.
Here is data using 69 gn SMK
No. Muzzel V. Amb. Temp Time avg stdev 1 2772 71 9:24 AM 2 2830 3 2842 4 2818 5 2824 2829 10 6 2836 7 2812 8 2830 9 2836 10 2855 2834 15 11 2855 72.3 10:13 AM 12 2818 13 2836 14 2818 15 2818 2829 16 16 2855 74.4 10:39 AM 17 2849 18 2818 19 2842 20 2849 2843 15 21 2855 75 10:57 AM 22 23 2849 24 2867 25 2824 2849 18 26 2836 27 2861 28 2824 29 2830 30 2830 2836 14 31 2842 32 2849 33 2842 34 2836 35 2855 2845 7 36 2855 37 2842 38 2836 39 2849 40 2842 2845 7 41 2801 42 2849 43 2818 44 2836 45 2824 2826 18
first off id stop cleaning the barrel...my 6.5mm shilen takes 15 to 20 rounds before it will shoot after cleaning.
second id add more neck tension... .003 .004 and see how your ES's are
third i would full length re-size every time using a forster FL bench rest die...send the die in to forster and have them hone the neck to about .006 under fired neck size and have them make you a few undersized expander balls in .001 increments so you can adjust neck tension....or buy a redding body die and a lee collet die.
forth...and to help you tinker a little more..read this...especially the part about seating primers...to deep or to shallow is not good.
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com...mer-study.html
fifth id try some remington 7.5 primers...i think i just read some where that most of the high end shooters are using them and the BR-4s...
yes here it is LOL... http://precisionrifleblog.com/2012/0...ion-reloading/
change one thing at a time and note if its better or worse and ill bet your ES's improve....and i almost forgot...i have a RCBS primer...i never use it any more...spend the money and buy a good seating tool...it will make a difference
The neck is .255 after firing. If it is .006 smaller that will be .249-.224=.025/2=.0125 neck thickness.
I just measured a few neck sized cartridges and they are .2450 / prepared loads are .2465. Looks like I need less neck tension, correct? Ok, now you've done it...uhhhh...lot's more to to obsess about. Thanks!
Last edited by ivanpros; 08-08-2015 at 06:46 PM.
If a loaded neck is .246.5 and you go with the forster id have them hone the neck to .240 or .241 and have them make .245,.244,.243,.242 expander balls that will allow you to go as much as .004 or as little as .001 neck tension.
What is your sized neck now before loading?
Here are the measurements. .245 neck sized/.246 bullet seated
Do you think this would work (looks like I would need the extra bushings to go down to .240)?-
Forster Precision Plus Bushing Bump Neck Sizer Die with 3 Bushings 223 Remington Bushings included: 0.247", 0.245", 0.243"
http://ads.midwayusa.com/product/841...ProductFinding
Last edited by ivanpros; 08-11-2015 at 03:10 AM.
There's a lot more work described here than I've ever considered.
My son's just finished his first full season of FTR shooting using a Savage Model 12 .223 with a 26" 1:7 twist barrel.
Rifle is standard with addition of 20 MOA scope rail, scope and bipod.
We've concentrated on his shooting skills on the range.
I hand load for him with a standard load of 24.7 gr Varget in Norma cases with Winchester small rifle primers and 80 gr A-Max projectiles.
We started with about 400 new cases so most have been used 3 - 4 times in the season.
I've never full length sized these cases, only neck sizing when de-priming. Then ultrasonic cleaning before re-priming and reloading.
Cases haven't been trimmed either.
I concentrate on the loading, using a digital measure and 2nd digital scale accurate to 0.02 gr and checking the OAL of a selection of rounds.
This combination has proven to be competitive mostly against competitors using 308s.
To me this discussion appears to be over thinking the issue and process.
Variables on the day, heat/cold, wind, rain, shooter's state of mind, can have more effect on the shooter's results than an excessive focus on the reloading process.
But what do I know? I'm only a newbie's father who has had time to listen and observe.
Hi Cyclops, there are many components to shooting. there is a scientific theory, physics and practical application. You just happen to be looking from a perspective of practical application at this time in your life. It's great that you are working with your son on his first year FTR shooting.
Take a look at this video if you want to have the best loads for your son-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUnrYp0NH38
you can look at it as over thinking or you can look at it as taking all the variables out of your ammo as possible...i agree that trigger time is important but so is load development and case prep...if your son continues his pursuit of FTR and you continue to load for him you will at some point figure out just how important all of this is and will have to do it(or at least some of it)to stay competitive.
do i need to do ALL of the case prep i do?? the answer is NO...not for the type of shooting i do...but at the end of the day im not wondering why i shot a bad score.
yes that will work but personally i dont care for the bushing dies....this is the die i was referring to...if you look around you can find just the sizing die...
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/184...ProductFinding
or this is a less expensive way of doing the same thing....
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/401...ProductFinding
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/215819/lee-collet-neck-sizer-die-223-remington?cm_vc=ProductFinding
and yes you need MORE neck tension try .003 to start and dont clean your barrel or change any thing else and i bet your ES's and SD's drop.
Last edited by LongRange; 08-09-2015 at 08:43 AM.
Ivanpros,
I don't know if this will help you, but it sure piqued my interest in what is possible in precision shooting. Back in the 70's a wealthy Texan by the name of Virgil King built a 300+ yard long warehouse and in the evenings and weekends he used it as a shooting laboratory to develop techniques for precision shooting. He was just a gun hobbyist, not a competitive shooter but he routinely put 5 shot groups that measured in the zeros in his "lab".
A publication of his work was eventually made in Precision Shooting Magazine (now gone) but can still be found on line.
Here's a link I found where you can download the full text. Pretty amazing article.
http://precisionrifleblog.com/2013/1...ifle-accuracy/
I think you are pushing the 77's too hard. 2600 fps or less should be magic .
The Dunning-Kruger effect is alive and well.
Robinhood, you are absolutely right! went to the range today and had a the firing pin go right through the primer (cratering visible)r- Remington benchrest 7 1/2. Interesting that the CCI BR-4's had no prolem at all. I will definitely take it back to 23 gn. and start working loads again- with the 7 1/2s. by the way, I checked the firing pin protusion and it is at .050.
Thanks! I am looking through the options to decide.
I try to keep mine anout .035...the CCI primers have a harder cup...i think the rems are about the softest.
I have the new firing pin configuration (edge/axis) and from what I can tell it cannot be adjusted like the old ones. I am planning on calling Savage tomorrow and asking them for some advice.
ok, so here is my plan, I will order the set of forster dies and the Lee Collet neck sizing die. Now I understand why you suggested the full length sizing die- reduction of runout.
In the meantime, until those arrive, I am going to Harbor Freight to buy a honing stone so I can hone (reduce) the expander ball by .002 on my RCBS competition die- without the expander ball it sizes the neck down to .241. I should be able to size down to .243 and at least give an indication if the ES SD goes down. I understand there will be runout, but it's a good start.
DONT use or buy a stone....get some 320-400 and 2000-2500 grit wet and dry sand paper...chuck you expander ball mandrel with the ball on it in a drill spin it slow with the 320-400 and check it often with your calipers when your with in .0005 or so of your desired measurement switch the the 2000-2500 grit to polish it up.
Wow, that was easy. I used 320, 800 and 2000 and it worked like a charm. OEM expander ball was .221 and after sanding got it to .219. Resized some brass and it is now .243. This all took less than 10 minutes.
Last edited by ivanpros; 08-11-2015 at 03:07 AM.
and i bet that the sizing is a lot smoother now as well?
let us know how everything works out with a more neck tension.
Ok, here are the results. LongRange, thank you very much for getting me moving in the right direction again. I have finally made some headway. Overall not great yet, but the standard deviations have dropped significantly. The groups have also tightened up. I rezised the neck with expander ball to .243 & removed the expander ball/ pin assembly to resize to .241.
Some assumption I have:
-The ogive OAL of 1.990 is still touching the lands on some of the shots and are the higher MV numbers. If I dial this in to the correct distance it should help reduce the Extreme spread. I plan on testing 1.980, 1.970,1.960 (I will need to order the Forster seating Die to get a more reliable tool than the RCBS competition die for seating to .001)
-Some of the shot group variation could be from changing alignment on the chronograph and the action heating up (surface temperature)
- It could also be the cartridge is tight. I will use full resizing die. Is there a reason why it is better to full size instead of bump the head and re-size the neck?
Once I get these under control I will go back and experiment with the powder in the 2,600 fps range.
Last edited by ivanpros; 08-16-2015 at 05:07 PM.
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