So I think after much research I definitely want a 7mm-300. There are two variations I'm looking at, the SAUM and WSM. The suam is slightly shorter at the shoulder, but has a longer neck then the wsm. Everything else about them is comparable including speed and accuracy.
However, it seems many say go with SAUM because a WSM will have bad enough throat erosion after 600-800 shots that it has to be cut down and re chambered. I do like the idea of WSM, but not enough to sacrifice that much barrel life. Seems you can get 1200+ rounds through a saum before needing re chambered due to the neck length.
Choosing between SAUM and WSM is really the only hurdle I need to jump before ordering a barrel. I have krieger and bartlein to choose from so whoever can give me the best time frame
Depends on how it will be used. 800 rounds is a lifetime for a gun used for hunting.
You really dont need to be practicing with the gun you use for hunting. Thats why they make 308s.
And consider going bigger if you plan on hunting with it. A 300 win mag or better yet 300 wby case would be
the better deal for a hunting gun.
This is for a short action. Id go with a different round otherwise. Im limited by design. I should have got a long action in 308, but I didnt know much at the time about all that. Now I have a pretty expensive custom gun that ive built in 308 that I would like to simply be able to swap out the barrel and bolt face and mag and call it good.Originally Posted by yobuck
And why do you need a bigger bullet for hunting? Ive killed deer for years and years with a 223. Thats about as small as ethically allowable. Even that can be questionable if you dont know your stuff and take very well placed shots. Thats why a got a 308 because of availability and more knockdown. I know people hunt elk with 308 too so its kind of like shooting a deer with a bow in bow season and thinking you need a 300 mag for deer later in gun season...i dont think they got any tougher or bigger in that time. Hehe
How many shots before you wear out a barrel also has a lot to do with how many shots you take in a string. For hunting rifles, it will be very tough to wear out a barrel to a point where it wouldn't be ethical to hunt with.
The 7mm magnum type cartridges will take down most animals that walk this planet. I wouldn't take it against the largest game, but will easily suffice for anything in North America. Make sure to use a quality hunting bullet, and you won't run into problems.
I would question the range that you plan on hunting. If the range is inside 500 yards, I would look at the 6.5mm rounds, specifically the 260 remington or the 6.5 creedmore.
They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
Not for nothing but are you really surprised that a case that holds 80gr of powder, might have a shorter life span.
Dean
RUMs are like woman in Stiletto heals, you know they are going to put you in the poor house, but that has never stopped anyone from pursuing them.
Well, heres the deal about that. I think im more towards the 7mm-300 for ranges maybe out too 700 or 800 on deer if I cant get closer. But I can almost always get closer so I dont think thatll be an issue. Usually the longest shots I take in a year are between 3-500 yards. But I would like to be able to reach out and touch past 1000 for targets as well. Im a precision nut, but a 6.5 just doesnt necessarily appeal to me. I dont know why, but it doesn't. I guess I like the idea that I "could" shoot a animal that far, but its really not a good idea so maybe its just my mind set that has me on a 7mm 300.
I did read a few benchrest forums on the 7mm 300 wsm vs saum...seems most are rooting for saum. Better life of the gun, less powder, very little difference in ballistics.
Yep, +1.
I have a Leopard, or if you like, a 6.5X300 WSM.
Average case capacity is 81.5gr H2O, which is essentially a push with the 264WM. Same capacity as the Win Mag, same bullet diameter, same operating pressure, same barrel wear.
I'm a firm believer in the theory that if it bleeds, I can kill it.
I also have a 6.5 WSM I had no idea it was called a Leopard, funny guy that I am I still like my 264 WinMag better, I like my belted cases.
Do the 25 or 6mm WSM have pet names?
Dean
Last edited by scope eye; 09-09-2015 at 07:25 AM.
RUMs are like woman in Stiletto heals, you know they are going to put you in the poor house, but that has never stopped anyone from pursuing them.
So the speed I found for a 6.5 at 140 grains in a wsm is 3100 with a ballistic coefficient of somewhere around .585, where as a 7mm at 168 grain will shoot I think around 3200 (need to look at load data) with a bc if .625 with the exact same bullet.
Ballistically, the 7mm is superior in every way with that much powder I think. Although I haven't seen a comparison of accuracy at extended ranges and that's what matters.
I guess what I use to compare it to people is blowing through a coffee straw vs a drinking straw. To an extent you might be able to get something to go faster but eventually the pressure just gets to high in the small straw and the big straw will end up faster.
With the bigger cartridges comes reduced barrel life. Any of the 7mm magnums will have reduced barrel life and the shooter will have to factor that in for barrel replacement. The 284ai might have a slight edge on reduced barrel wear, but that cartridge still approaches the speed of the 7mm rem mag. IMO you're splitting hairs when talking about which magnum will have a better barrel life.
They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
Yeah. It's hard though. I think I'm gonna go with SAUM. Less powder, longer neck. I don't care too much if I I don't get 2000 rounds through it as far as the actual rifling goes. Seems to me it's more of an issue with throat erosion. Saum seems to generally get around 1200 and wsm about 6-800 before accuracy starts to dump. I have no experience in the matter though.
I guess I'm just not a small caliber guy. Even though it's only half a millimeter. The selection and weight if 7mm vs 6.5 is pretty tremendous. 6.5 and 7 are both proven rounds though.
There is a rule of thumb for how long a barrels throat will last, this does not apply to serious over bores or Wildcats like someone we all know,
and that rule is after burning 15 pounds of powder your barrel will have given up the ghost, remember I said a rule of thumb I don't want to hear about your uncle once removed, that had 77 thousand rounds through his rifle and still won at Camp Perry.
Dean
RUMs are like woman in Stiletto heals, you know they are going to put you in the poor house, but that has never stopped anyone from pursuing them.
Don't count out any of the 6.5s because you don't think they can't reach past 600 yards and be very dependable relaible killers on deer or even elk. I used my 6.5-284 a couple years ago pushing a mild load 140 Amax at 2840 fps to take a deer at over 1200 yards. He died just as quickly as if I would have shot him with the biggest of 30 cal magnums. The .260 Remington or even the creedmoor can reach velocities of 2800fps plus and be much easier on barrels and the shoulder and allow for much more practice time. The .260 Ackley improved is an even better option being able to push the 140 class bullets up around the 2950 mark with only slightly more powder if any over the standard .260.
Assuming from the numbers you posted you are referring to both the Hornady 140 grain Amax in 6.5 and the 162gr Amax in 7mm. Keep in mind that those are advertised BC numbers and the actual Litz measured BC values are .584 and .599 respectfully. Though the 7mm is still superior it's not nearly as superior when actual numbers are used. The energy numbers are a no brainer the heavier bullet will deliver more energy down range but the trjectories are within 2 minutes and wind drift is within half a minute. I don't find the 7mm superior enough to step up to increased recoil and powder usage to push the heavier 7mm's bullets. This is just my thinking, to each their own.
A good mid size 6.5 is very hard to beat for deer sized game and 1000 yard target work in my book.
It would take me a long long lonnnnnnnnnnng time to burn through 15 pounds of powder. But fine, I wont tell you about my uncle...but my COUSINs uncle had a super gun with a magic bullet and fired 100 thousand times and the barrel still looked like new with a hot loaded 300 wsm and he could hit anything out to 2000 yards.
So how does 6.5 do out to extended ranges, say 1200, even 1500 yards vs 7mm? Your data is solid, im just curious. I'm not knocking anything down here that you all are saying. Just trying to learn to make the best decision for me when I go to order the barrel. I have time to change my opinion!
I don't know if I mentioned it but I already have a barrel in 308. Its never had a round through it yet as I'm just to the bedding in my gun. That's the last step. I can use that out to 600 or 700 yards for hunting I suppose if I develop a really good load, but still rather keep it under that even. Basically this 7mm 300 idea was for playing around for long range. Maybe really long range if it's capable like 1500 yds
Gee, I was starting to feel down in the dumps about my preference for 6.5mm, and not knowing about the obvious superiority of 7mm. I mean, by that logic, the 30cal must be better than both, and the 338's should be better yet. But after reading the post by "stomp" and others, I feel a lot better. "WHEE"! :-)
The 6.5's are very capable of going to extreme ranges and are just as easy to get there as any of the 7mms. The ballistics are really pretty similar between the two cartridges with the 140's having nearly identical BC's to the 162-168gr class 7mms. The advantage of the 7mm however is that it does have some excellent 180gr bullets to choose from as well and not to mention the newly announced 195 from berger. If shooting 1500 yards or further is your goal then definitely the heavier higher BC bullet is the way to go but the 6.5's will get there, just add a few extra clicks to the dial.
That sounds sarcastic...if it was, my logic was based simply off factors if B.C., weight, and speed. The recoil, cost, and barrel life relevant to accuracy at long distances was irrelevant to my comparison of 6.5 vs 7.
Well the logic is sound. I am a huge 6.5mm fan and I know from first hand experience that they are capable of much more than people give them credit for but they can only do so much. A bigger bore shooting a heavier bullet with a higher BC is going to be superior but it comes at a cost. What I like most about my 6.5's is that they are very efficient cartridges and provide the performance and energy needed to cleanly take game at some incredible ranges without having to use a magnum cartridge with 80 plus grains of powder the recoil that comes with it and the added cost of a brake in order to shoot it comfortably. But when compared appples to apples that is the heaviest highest BC bullet possible out of each cartridge of smilar size and capacity the 7mm will beat the 6.5 and the .30 will beat the 7mm. It may not be by much but it is the case.
Ill tell you how it does, and you wont like what i said. Its apperent to me at least that most of the talk around here is just that (talk).
First off real bc numbers are velocity related and not what somebody says they are and that includes people like Litz.
Thats why some bullet makers like Cutting Edge for example dont advertise bc numbers.
Certainly most cartridges can be shot out to distances like 12 and 1500 yds. But actually hitting something at those distances in another story.
Yes kills at extreme ranges are (possible if) and thats a very large if, the animal is hit in a very vital spot.
I have been using a 7x300 wby for over 40 years. I get over 3300 fps using a 162 gr Hornady. And yes the 162 is a flatter shooting bullet from my gun
than the 180 Berger at 1200 yds. I made my longest kill on a deer with that gun at 1200 + yds. That said i personaly will never again attempt another shot at that
distance with any 7mm. Come here to n. c. PA during buck season and i will personaly introduce you to lots of serious long range hunters over the coarse of
1 day. None will be using a 6.5 in any configuration and less and less are using 7mms all the time. For serious hunting at real distance go 30 cal at least with heavy bullets.
The 308 you have will do everything your talking about anyway. At least out to the distances your talking about.
Flatter I can believe, but it's not packing the energy or providing the wind drift the 180 is which is what is really important in long range hunting. Speaking of just talking it has been scientifically proven, that BC, when measured properly like using the G7 standard when using boat tail and VLD style bullets is NOT velocity dependant and why different standards for measuring were created. The BC of your 230 gr .30 cal bullet is the same at 1500 fps as it is at 3000 fps. I will not argue that the big .30's are better ballistically but I can also say without a shadow of a doubt that the same buck shot at the same 1200 yards and hit in the vitals with a 6.5 will die just as ethically and cleanly as the one shot with a .30cal. I have done it.
Alright, as a general reply, we really shouldn't be taking shots that long period. Everybody has good points, but shooting big game at ranges further than REQUIRED is not really what kind of things we should be doing as resPonsible hunters. Small game and predators are different story in some respects since you are using such high energy projectiles on small animals. Doesn't matter where you hit them, a fast large projectile will blow them apart. I know I'm young, but sound logic, no?
Yobuck, the reason I was deciding on on another cartridge is because I want to get something that I will bring out the maximum accuracy and range from a short action. Sure, I might hunt with it some and will probably put it on for coyote because if the ranges involved, but other wise the 308 will be in for deer season.
I just want to keep the first gun Ive built myself with no gunsmith involved, yet still be able to have something that can reach out and touch steel or paper at apparently ranges even further then 1500 yards. I really messed up getting a short action to build on, but it's what I have and I can't change it. That's why ive been deciding between wsm and saum which really kind of max out what you can get out of a short action. Seems like 6.5 are good to, yet even those for it suggest 7mm for going the furthest. That 195 eol Berger will probably out perform any 30 cal bullet you would put in a short action magnum that will still have respectable velocity.
Possibly I'm real full of crap and I don't understand what I'm talking about, but I'm trying. Definitely learning a ton from this thread.
So I have a question. Have you done any long range shooting before and know that you can in fact shoot the distances you are describing? There is nothing wrong with limiting your ranges to someting more manageable with a cartridge that fits the platform. The big heavy bullets out of the .308 like 185's and higher is a very capable cartridge out to 1000 easily and even further once you get a little practice under your belt. I would suggest using your current action as more of a learning platform and build a new rig for the extreme long range work you are wanting to do latter on. Save the money you would spend on bullets, powder, dies and a new barrel and buy bullets and powder for the .308. Practice, practice and practice then move up into a better platform and cartridge as time and money allows.
I have some, I just don't have a round configuration right now that I can reach out and touch a long way. Basically I don't go any further than 900-1000 yards. I then decided to build up my 308 with a a5 stock, bottom metal, and shilen barrel because let's face it, the budget end of savage rifles just can't compete at real long ranges with what they come with. Sub moa, yea, but not really good id you shoot much.
Well an airplane ticket is cheaper than building a gun. Especially the wrong gun. If your interested, i will email you pictures of what we can do from
my front yard. No bs just in fact what we do and why i have the opinions i have. You pick the gun and shoot it at what ever distance you want out to 2 miles.
I can (guarantee) you that on many days you wont even see the bullet hits at 1500 yds with even the 30 cals let alone 6.5s or 7mms.
So forget shooting at 1500 yds with what your talking about doing. Id either be selling or sitting on the action and sticking with the 308.
Can you believe 50 years ago the 6.5 was the hottest long range cartridge on the planet? Thats simply because no good bullets existed for any others.
But when that changed, guess what? Guys rebarreled about as fast as rats leave a sinking ship.
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