Questions about my new rifle

**Russ77** · 07-24-2015, 05:55 AM

Hello everyone,
I purchased my first rifle today. It is a savage axis heavy barrel in .223 and I have a few questions. First is it a short or long action and what is the difference? Also I am looking at Cleaning kits and there are so many options. Should I just get the 30 dollar one with the piece together riod or is it worth it to spend the extra money and get the one piece supper nice coated in rubber rod??? Also do I need a bore guide?? I have noticed most of the kits don't come with one.
Thanks for the help
Russ

rfd12fv · 07-24-2015, 06:17 AM

hey russ, great choice, i just got an axis heavy barrel .308 win.

from what rosco posted, all the axis models are long action, but (as in the case of the heavy barrel models) it's the cartridge/magazine that matters, and yours and mine are short action cartridges.

i wouldn't get a cleaning kit, just get the right cleaning tools. for me that means a tipton carbon fiber rod, a bore rider delrin jag (or just a brass 8-32 jag), a nylon or bronze brush, butch's bore shine (the cleaner) and break free clp (the cleaner/lube/preserver). of course you'd want a rod and jag and brush sized for the .223 caliber. i use arsenal 2" patches and roll patch patches. it is absolutely imperative to use a bore guide, so you don't bugger the chamber. ALL cleaning is done from the chamber side, never the muzzle.

ps - i'll add, some folks just lock, load and shoot a new firearm. i'd rather "break in" a barrel - cleaning out the barrel after every shot for the first 5 to 10 shots, then every 5 shots for the next 30 to 40 shots. new barrels, particularly stock "production" barrels aren't all that clean or smooth, so the beginning use with jacketed bullets will help "polish" the bore and you want to clean out any residual metal residue.

above all have fun - and if yer unsure about something with yer axis or ammo or shooting, ask first!

**Rosco** · 07-24-2015, 09:58 AM

Russ welcome to the addiction!!

The the .223 is a short action cartridge but all Axis actions from center to center are the same size (4 25/32'') and technically Long Actions. I know that is not confusing right!! Savage designed the Axis to accept both Long(270,30-06,25-06) and Short(.223,22-250 etc..) action cartridges in one rifle. The differences between models are in the mag well size, the magazines(feed lips, follower), and bolt heads.

As for cleaning, you are going to get so many opinions, so I might as well toss mine in the ring. Since it sounds like you may be new to Bolt Action rifles I would suggest

http://www.boretech.com/

I wasted a lot of time and money of different cleaning systems and their components in the beginning. IMHO just call these guys and tell them what you have and they should be able to supply you with an all-one solution for cleaning your rifle. They are not cheap but the extra money will be well worth it over time.

**DrThunder88** · 07-24-2015, 08:46 PM

How tight to the cleaning rod are Bore Tech guides? I have Possum Hollow guides right now and noticed mine (for my .243 Win) is supposed to be for calibers up to .257 and my Tipton carbon fiber cleaning rod is for calibers down to .224. Is there a better combination to prevent the rod from flexing toward the throat? I've been happy with the combination, but I'd prefer not to put any more hurt on the throat than the ammo already does.

I further support the piecemeal approach to cleaning gear opposed to a pre-assembled kit.

I like Hoppe's Elite cleaner. I'll typically dribble a little into the bore via the bore guide and then scrub it into a froth with a bronze brush. Given 20 minutes of soaking in the froth, the fouling comes out pretty easily with patches over a brass jag. Usually a few scrubs are necessary. When the patches come out clean, the bore is too.

I also like to clean the chamber with a mop and .45 caliber brush. A short cleaning rod helps, but it's doable with a regular rod.

For gun oil, try Mobil 1 V-Twin oil. One can get a quart for $10, which is better than any special-purpose gun oil you can name. I typically follow the Garand model for lubrication though: if it slides, grease it; if it rotates or rusts, oil it.

I should mention that I keep my oil and solvent in laboratory wash bottles instead of using the full size bulk bottles I usually buy. They're about $5, but you more than make up for the markup on smaller bottles.

**Rosco** · 07-24-2015, 09:16 PM

I use the combination of the Bore Stix Proof Positive, Nylon Brushes, Proof Positive Jags and the Bore Tech Eliminator. Don't do anything fancy, so far I have just followed the instructions and the bores wipe out clean every time. The fitment of the Bore Stix and guide seem fine to me, you can easily lock in the guide, and it positions the rod just the way it needs to be. I do use a Possum Hollow guide on the .17 HMR and those are fine as well.

After researching various products over few months, I decided on the Bore Tech system, mainly because of informal reviews like this one, This was one of many

http://www.shootersforum.com/gun-cle...s-kg-12-a.html

And the guys at GA Precision also recommend this product.

http://www.gaprecision.net/ga-precision-download.html

Check the PDF on cleaning and break in.

**jpdown** · 07-24-2015, 09:44 PM

When it comes to barrel cleaning tools, buy once and cry once is the lesson I've learned. I've tried lots of cleaning solutions and gizmo's over the years. Get yourself a good Dewey one-piece coated cleaning rod and aluminum/nickel coated jag for the .223. The Possum Hollow bore guide is the best, easy to use and stays in place during cleaning. Nothing I've found beats or works any better than Wipe Out (foam) or Patch-Out (liquid) bore cleaner and cotton patches. It will remove fouling, carbon, lead and copper as good as anything I've found and better than most I've used over the years.

**daddyusmaximus** · 07-24-2015, 10:42 PM

I've been shooting for over 34 years. That said... 28 of them were in the Army with a beat up AR and screw together cleaning rods. Basicly I have tons of experience at using poor techniques, and I still made it home in one piece. (more or less) So now I'm retired, got me a bolt gun, (Axis .308) and as I read more on cleaning, I'm not sure my new found friend, the Bore Snake, is the best solution for cleaning. I will say it's so easy... For a guy that isn't ever gonna shoot more than 300 yds again, is it still recommended to splurge on a good rod and guide for cleaning?

**Russ77** · 07-25-2015, 01:23 AM

do any of you guys use copper cleaner on your barrels??

rfd12fv · 07-25-2015, 06:03 AM

i use delrin bore rider jags (and brush guides - though i almost never need to use a brush) on a tipton carbon fiber bearing rod, and with a bolt bore guide installed in the rifle. that's about as safe as one can get for both chamber and muzzle. i couple that with butch's bore shine and arsenal and roll patch patches for cleaning out the crud, and it does a great job on any residual copper fouling (read butch's article in the lyman's 49th reload manual). being a delrin jag, there's no false blue/green on the patch one can get from a brass jag. it's important to get a tight fit of jag and patch. once the patching comes out clean, a few to dry and then a wet patch with break free clp and i'm done. fired and deprimed brass gets a 30 minute bath in the hornady 2L ultrasonic and they come out like brand new and ready to be reloaded.

i also use these bore rider jags for my bpcr s/s rifles (black powder .45-70 cartridges, rolling block rifles), only i substitute a water soluble oil/water mix (ballistol) for the fouling cleaner, but still finish up with a wet break free patch. black powder cleaning is far more critical than smokeless, and the bore riders work extremely well. bore rider jags aren't cheap when compared to any other jags, but to me they're worth it many times over. i'd never clean any open breech rifle without using a bore rider. to me, it's literally revolutionized barrel cleaning, and i've been in this firearm game since the early 1950's. nope, no affiliation with the bore rider company nor shilling for 'em - it's just real good stuff and ymmv.

www.boreriderbarrelcareproducts.com

**Russ77** · 07-26-2015, 12:33 AM

Got my cleaning stuff taken care of now I get to pick a scope and mounts. I found a UTG scope that looks really good and won't break the bank. I think I'm going to go with the one piece rail mount over the two piece

rfd12fv · 07-26-2015, 05:41 AM

Originally Posted by Russ77

... I found a UTG scope that looks really good and won't break the bank.....

you will get what you paid for - really good and highly functional glass is, for the very most part, not cheap. expect to pay $300 or crazy lots more, new. variable 2nd focal plane scopes are usually one trick ponies that work best at their lower magnifications. one of the absolute best values in scopes is the swfa fixed series (6x, 10x, 12x, 16x, 20x) for $300 - built for the military and highly praised, i've had three, they're superb and at that price tag are untouchable. as always, tailor the glass to your rifle's needs and requirements ... and piggy bank.

**Russ77** · 07-26-2015, 06:51 AM

Yes I am learning that the world of rifle scopes is somewhat overwhelming.

rfd12fv · 07-26-2015, 07:41 AM

yes, rifle scopes are almost annoyingly overwhelming, with dozens and dozens of models from each manufacturer. it's no wonder the wrong choice is made 99% of the time by newbies, let alone by those who should know better. the trend has always been to variable power scopes, and those are the types that will require the most money spent to get at least serviceable quality and performance. it's hard for some to think about spending as much or lots more on a scope than they just paid for the rifle. but any rifle's inherent accuracy is the sum of all its parts, and the sighting system is one of those parts. the more important part of the rifle equation is the bullet and cartridge, its load recipe, and its build consistency.

as an example, for the $310 axis hb i just bought, the scope that's about to go on it cost me the street price of $428. it's a sun optics usa 4-14x44 ffp (first focal plane), and sf (side focus). it's far from the best of scopes, but quite useful for the 100-300 yards marks i shoot at. still, a 10x42 swfa for $300 would probably have worked just as well. unlike some rifles, for the most part you'll get what you pay for when you purchase rifle glass. spend wisely.

**Dennis** · 07-26-2015, 08:18 AM

On most of my rifles, I have more $$$$ in glass than I do in the rifle.

It's definitely worth it IMO. I have Zeiss, Swarosvki, March, and NightForce. The others I had (excluding Vortex which is a good scope for the money) just didn't cut it.

Yes the Vortex are not a bad scope, so don't overlook them.

JMO, Dennis

**Russ77** · 07-27-2015, 12:06 AM

Yes I'm learning a lot about scopes. I have trying to stay under 200 but I'm thinking about spending a bit more to move to that next level of performance. I am strongly considering the vortex viper. I checked them out at basspro. I liked the 3x9x40 and I was told they have a great warranty

rfd12fv · 07-27-2015, 05:51 AM

there are lots of "features" about scopes to consider. while there is some merit to *quality* variable power scopes (not cheap!), most shooting/aiming can be well accomplished with a *good* fixed power scope. consider that the 4x to 10x scope was - and to a fair degree, still is - the military standard sniper favorite. fixed scopes are also typically more durable, with less to "go wrong" than a variable power, not having to settle for a 2nd focal plane, and better glass with less distortion. besides the glass/optics, also consider the turrets and their degree of adjustments.

i would highly recommend the swfa ss line of fixed power mrad military scopes and my fave for 100 yards and out to 1000 yards is still their $300 classic 10x42 tactical mrad 30mm. check it out ...

http://swfa.com/SWFA-SS-10x42-Tactic...pe-P53712.aspx

for an excellent online review of the swfa ss 10x42 by someone who really knows rifle scopes ...

**devildogandboy** · 07-27-2015, 01:21 PM

Originally Posted by rfd12fv

there are lots of "features" about scopes to consider. while there is some merit to *quality* variable power scopes (not cheap!), most shooting/aiming can be well accomplished with a *good* fixed power scope. consider that the 4x to 10x scope was - and to a fair degree, still is - the military standard sniper favorite. fixed scopes are also typically more durable, with less to "go wrong" than a variable power, not having to settle for a 2nd focal plane, and better glass with less distortion. besides the glass/optics, also consider the turrets and their degree of adjustments.

i would highly recommend the swfa ss line of fixed power mrad military scopes and my fave for 100 yards and out to 1000 yards is still their $300 classic 10x42 tactical mrad 30mm. check it out ...

http://swfa.com/SWFA-SS-10x42-Tactic...pe-P53712.aspx

for an excellent online review of the swfa ss 10x42 by someone who really knows rifle scopes ...

yep, i agree with this. the SWFA scopes are excellent in quality and features. for the $$$ you would be hard pressed to find better clarity. i have the 16x on my 300rum and haven't had any problems. they offer these in 6x fixed through 20x fixed i believe.

Bruce

forgot to add, if you watch their SampleList they offer used ones from $259 depending on condition. i bought my 16x used for $269 and it looked new!

**Russ77** · 07-27-2015, 05:29 PM

Doesn't having a fix power scope really limit you to the range of targets you can hit??? I have read a lot about SWFA and it seems like a great scope for the money, the only thing I don't like about it is the fixed power

**foxx** · 07-27-2015, 05:40 PM

Yes, Russ. I agree. I could never deer hunt with my fixed power SWFA SS's. I much prefer low powered variables for that very reason. If I had to hunt with a fixed pwer scope, I would choose something like 4x, but since I bought/tried PA 4-16x or whatever it is I don't have to worry about giving up variable benefits for reasonable, practical quality and affordability.

After owning and trying both, I have decided I definitely prefer the PA over the SWFA, and I am a big fan of the SWFA SS

But, I mostly hunt in heavy cover, thick , dark cedar swamps which rarely present anything beyond 50 yard shots, and most often are much closer than that even at running deer.

rfd12fv · 07-27-2015, 05:53 PM

Originally Posted by Russ77

Doesn't having a fix power scope really limit you to the range of targets you can hit??? I have read a lot about SWFA and it seems like a great scope for the money, the only thing I don't like about it is the fixed power

how will you use yer new axis hb .223 rifle? that will lead to whether or not the scope could be fixed or if you'll have a need, not want, to go variable.

**Russ77** · 07-27-2015, 09:46 PM

I will be Target shooting from 25 to 400 yards

**foxx** · 07-27-2015, 09:55 PM

Weaver t-36.

I see no need for a variable if you are only shooting stationary targets from the bench.

rfd12fv · 07-27-2015, 10:33 PM

swfa 10x32 to 16x32

**Russ77** · 08-04-2015, 07:19 PM

Scope,rings,mount, and cleaning supplies all taken care of. I didn't think I would spend more on buying stuff for my rifle then I did buying the rifle itself. Next step: mounting the scope