308 ammo expectations....

[Peter_Kirch]

Hey guys

I have a query, what have you observed in terms of accuracy with Winchester 7.62 x51 NATO commercial stuff. They are loaded with 147gr FMJ's
Do you think I should be getting better than 1 moa out of them? So far that is about the best I’ve gotten.
They've been going through my new SSS prepped 308, with a 24" 1:10 heavy barrel. And yes it is bedded and no there’s nothing wrong with the scope. I don't think anything in this has to do with the rifle. I think it is between the ammo and the shooter (me). I am also left handed.

Theoretically, if I had perfect form and was shooting cheap factory ammo, wouldn’t the differences in FPS just make the groups strung vertically correct?
I'll be getting the 308 reloading stuff this week so I will start in on load development next week. I will be using either RL15 or IMR4895 with 155gr Lapua Scenars. I just ordered a Redding competition seater die as well as the lee deluxe set. What does your load development look like? I’ve thought I would build 3 batches: 1) .020 of the lands 2) .010 off the lands and 3) jammed into the lands. Then in each of those batches how many 5 shot groups with how much range of powder variation?

I'm 90% sure I've got some work to do in the marksman department as well because the groups are not similar in shape or size(depending on the day). I've only been out shooting it 2-3 times with the new rifle. I am much more stable shooting prone and tend to get 1”-1.6" groups with the commercial NATO stuff. Yesterday I was out shooting off a bench with this rifle for the first time. The club's benches have slick concrete surfaces(not textured) and it was causing the bipod to jump(as it jumped it tended to go to the left). I don't normally have a problem with it jumping from any other position so I attributed it to the slick surface.

Would you guys mind looking at the whole scenario and offer me up some advice. Perhaps what you would expect from factory Winchester NATO ammo and what your expectations of group sizes would be going from factory to hand loaded ammunition. Also any shooting drills you like. Do you think the bipod should be still even with a slick surface they are resting on?
And please don’t say find a mentor local or ask the guys at the range. 90% of the time there’s a total of 3 guys at the range, each of us at a different course. Even if they are here most of them are into SASS shooting or skeet. Not very many high powered guys around here….it sucks

Thanks in advanced
-Peter

[dcloco]

No...1 moa is good with that ammo.

Pull ten bullets and measure them for yourself.

[nova1194]

My 10fp wont get near 1 moa with that ammo, but with my handloads using varget and 150gr sierra gamekings, it will shoot groups just under 1 inch at 200 yards.

Mike

[rjtfroggy]

I wish I could have saved my target the last time out with my 308(raining fell apart)it was a ragged hole @100 using 150gr.smk, CCI LR primer, 41.5gr. IMR4895.The bullets are seated 0.015 off the lands.This grouping is from a 10LE with a 20" barrel, 20x SS scope, mounted with Burris XTR bases and the SS tactical rings(same as burris xtr-low).
Pete this rifle has never had factory ammo put through it and it probably took 125-140 rounds to start getting the results I am finally getting.
I know one thing for sure, the 2 guys next to me one on each side were relay Peed off when they found out it was a stock Savage and their $4100 remington customs (barrels,stocks,triggers,all bedded)could not or would not group as tight.
Try a bench rest instead of the bipod,use a leg from old pair of jeans filled with sand, anything to hold it steadier than the bipod for load development. The results will be much better.

[pbcaster45]

I've never gotten gilt edge accuracy with military ammo (except M852), most of the time it's good for about 1 - 2 inch groups at 100 yards. This is from my 10FLP (I'm a lefty too) which is capable of one hole groups with handloads. I did this test a few weeks ago you might find interesting.

http://savageshooters.com/SavageForu...c,32117.0.html

I rarely shoot anything under 168 grains in my .308s but here's a good load I use in my M1A.

Bullet: Nosler 155 gr. HPBT
Powder: Hodgdon H4895 42.0 grs.
Primer: Winchester Large Rifle
Case: Lake City 64
LOAL: 2.780 (2.196 base to ogive w/Stoney Point)
Avg Velocity: 2712.68 fps


[img width=600 height=350]http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc265/pbcaster45/SAIM1ANM100yards.jpg[/img]

[Peter_Kirch]

Well if nothing else you guys make me feel better. I can't wait to try some reloaded stuff through this. Hopefully by the end of june I can have some great loads worked up.

One more question, is there a reason people use smk's at short range and A-max's at long range?
Also should I take into account the range at which I m shooting when picking loads?
Do heavier bullets take longer to stabilize than lighter bullets?

Ok more than one question :P

[Uncle Jack]

I do not give exact load info to people I do not know. With the bullets you mentioned, I would suggest the 4895. With that bullet and 4895 you could have a tackdriver.

uj

[dcloco]

Varget & 168 gr anything bullets seems to be THE ticket in 308's.

Personally, Varget and me have never achieved that outstanding of accuracy. Was it the couple pounds I bought (different lots - I checked) or something else....no clue.

H4895, H414, etc, etc, work rather well in the 308's.

For factory ammo, buy a box of the Hornady Tap ammo - have seen many groups that were nearly a ragged hole.

[Peter_Kirch]

well I have a christmas present coming from midway... Redding competition seater, Lee deluxe die set, OAL gauge and comparator, lyman scale, case length gauge, and some lapua scenar 155gr. I'm excited to get some good loads made up ;D

[BobT]

I hope you have a good reloading manual coming also! Start at the starting loads listed and work your way up, spend some time reading through all the stuff in the front of the manual that is where they tell you how to keep from blowing yourself up. The guys that are winning the matches with the 155 and 155.5 grainers are using Varget mostly IIRC.

Bob

[Uncle Jack]

In leu of a reloading manual, you might try:

http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp

It's a good place to start.

uj

[Peter_Kirch]

I've already been reloading 30-06. Got the lyman and hornady manuals. Very good info. Plus not a bad read compared to some ballistics books.
This is just the first time I got a good seater die and measuring tools. With the 30-06 of was just setting them to the standard COAL and picked a powder level 20% under max using pacesetter dies. This time I'm actually going to do some load development.

I've gotten the "getting started" done. Now I'm on to the spiral downward into reloading depravity 8)

[tammons]

If you want to try a nice low recoil load, load up some 110 gr vmax bullets sometime.
Very accurate. Great for shooting at 100 yards.

I have some slightly reduced 308 loads I use for deer hunting, neck shots out to about 100 yards.

I also loaded up some reduced loads for my dads 30-06 so he can handle the recoil.
He is 89 YO and still putting them in the dirt.

The last reduced loads I cooked up for him for his 30-06 would cycle his Remington 30-06 semi auto.

[Peter_Kirch]

well guys I got all my reloading stuff up

Here's the best group after first round of load development
Best length ended up having the COAL exact same as the chamber, no jump or jam.
Load:
COAL: 2.188
Bullet: 155gr Lapua Scenar
Case: Winchester
Primer: CCI BR2
Powder: 46.0gr RL-15

[img width=337 height=450]http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh114/pk31690/New%20308/Reload1-1.jpg[/img]

I don't know why the text is so small; it's a .765 moa 5 shot group. I figured now that I have the length set I can test with powder weights to see what gives the best.
What do you guy suggest for the range and increment of powder weights to test? start 10% under and increment in 2/10th's of of a grain?

[tammons]

I would work around that 46 gr area.
.2 grains sounds good.
No need to drop 10% though.

Just as a note, your COL is short. Is that supposed to be 3.188 ??

[Peter_Kirch]

sorry, I forgot to add that I was measuring with a comparator which measures from the ogive. Yes I think it is around 3.188 if I measured to the bullets tip

[8x57mm]

[img width=467 height=450]http://home.comcast.net/~v2creative/target02.jpg[/img]

Range report and load info at bottom of page at:

http://home.comcast.net/~v2creative/camo.html


The 1:10 twist of the Savages likes the heavier 175gr SMKs. A lot.

Fire form your brass, neck size only, and be happy-happy.

JR

[Peter_Kirch]

what speed do you go for with the 175's?

[Dennis]

I have shot great groups with HSM 308 175gr HPBT ammo from Sniper Central. I will send pictures of targets with groups in the .300 area with this ammo!

My 1-10 twist barrels love it, I have one 1-12 twist and it will only shoot 168's