My quest for accuracy
I'm learning a LOT about long guns. Did not know that any given gun will shoot to different points of impact with different ammo. I was naive enough to believe that if I put the crosshairs on target and maintained constant trigger pull that the bullet was going where I aimed it. My Savage model 10 .223 has taught me otherwise.
It was frustrating because I could not get good groups and I was finding that sighting in with FMJ and hunting with ballistic tips of the same bullet weight was no recipe for success. I educated two coyotes and have not been back since until I get this sorted out.
My quest led me through several different bullet manufacturers and varying bullet weights and styles. I started shooting at 2 x 3 foot pieces of paper with crosses drawn on them for aiming points because it was iffy that the next load would even hit an 8 1/2 by 11 sheet of paper. I kept those targets with notes as to which bullets made which groups and sat down at the kitchen table with a set of calipers one day to collect some data. To my surprise I found 40 Gr ballistic tips gave a 0.6 inch group and a 55 gr FMJ gave me a 0.79 inch group. I bought a Dillon 550 reloader and a set of Lee dies and went to work.
I picked up some H335 powder for it's ability to meter accurately and because others I've talked to have had good luck with that powder. (had to start somewhere) Savage told me that they test fire their rifles for 1 1/2 inch groups with 69 gr match ammo so I bought a box of Barnes 69 Gr Matchburners. I got one group at 0.6 inches with a reduced load and another at 0.91 inches near published max.
Reloads with 55 gr Nosler ballistic tips has so far been all over the place. Groups over 2 and three inches!
I suspect that some of my issues may be different kinds of brass. I've dumped all of my once fired, albeit from different manufacturers, brass into one bucket and processed them for reloading. So, there is nothing consistent from one cartridge to another of case capacity, wall thickness, etc. I've also used BR primers which are pretty hot from what I've been told. My last trip to the range I ran out of the BR primers and used some Winchester small rifle primers and it seemed that the groups tightened a bit. More range time will tell.
When I was a kid I learned to shoot with a 22 that had, and still has, a hair trigger. That sucker is accurate. I don't like the accu-trigger on my .223 so I've ordered a Rifle Basix SAV-1. That is the only aftermarket that I can find that will fit the Savage model 10 with a lower bolt release. I've also ordered three hundred LC processed cases to try to get some consistency from shot to shot.
I will continue to try different bullet weights and powder charges until I get the accuracy that I'm looking for. I basically want to stack holes and am convinced that the rifle is capable of better groups than I've seen so far. It is my intention to squeeze out as much as I can in reduced groups before I go to a gunsmith for glass and pillar bedding.
I don't want to educate any more coyotes but I do want to have fun.
You're on the right track. Eliminating variables is a big part of making small groups.
Read. Read. Read.
Shooting websites (like this one), reloading manuals, and various other shooting publications will give you ideas. You then need to test those ideas to find what works for you.
If it's a 9 twist 69 gr smk & some varget/// 50gr, 55gr.hornady v max & some AR COMP// lapue brass or some 8208 xbr powder. 2.2650 coal.
Words of encouragement are appreciated. I've read everything I can find on the internet and a couple of old reloading manuals that I have.
Powder has been hard to find although I did find one store about 35 miles away that seems to have a good selection. My next pound will probably be the Varget.
Yes, it is a 1-9 twist barrel.
At one point I even tried to lengthen the stock with a spacer that I made. One trip to the range told me that was a loser so I dumped it.
That would be a very good assumption. Sorting your brass will help eliminate fliers in some groups and flat out shrink others.Originally Posted by Idaho
I suspect that some of my issues may be different kinds of brass. I've dumped all of my once fired, albeit from different manufacturers, brass into one bucket and processed them for reloading. So, there is nothing consistent from one cartridge to another of case capacity, wall thickness, etc. I've also used BR primers which are pretty hot from what I've been told. My last trip to the range I ran out of the BR primers and used some Winchester small rifle primers and it seemed that the groups tightened a bit. More range time will tell.
More shooting, less typing.
When loading for pin point accuracy, CONSISTENCY is the game. I segregate all my brass by manufacturer and then segregate them by grain weight. I deburr flash holes and recut primer pockets to make them all uniform in depth. My bullets are measured from base to ogive and segregated by length. If I'm REALLY looking for the smallest group possible in a bolt action, I weigh my bullets too.
The load that Savage mentioned (69gr) was probably Federal Gold Medal Match. I say that because I saw a test target from the factory with a 308 and it was done with Federal Gold Medal Match 168.
You are probably right js. I was surprised how slow the match ammo ran through the chrono though. Right now I'm waiting on the brass and bullets that I ordered as well as the new trigger. I will shoot again when I get the new trigger installed and get my hands on the new components to work up some loads.
Today I sorted out my brass. I paid attention to the last batch that I loaded up and sure enough, it was a mix of several different kinds of brass. Hopefully that has contributed to my groups being larger than I want. Time will tell soon enough.
+1 to that statement!
Please keep us posted on your progress.
I noticed that you said you bought a Dillon 550. In my opinion, progressive presses are meant for high volume plinking ammo production, not for precision. Since you are trying for the best accuracy that your rifle can produce, I think that you'd be better off loading in single stage mode and weighing your individual powder charges. It's the consistency thing that was previously mentioned by GaCop.
Which match ammo was slow and by how much? I ran some Federal GMM 69s over the chrono and velocity was 2927fps in the factory 26" barrel. Box said 3000fps at the time, I noticed the other day when looking on their site for info on the 80gr load (from another thread) that they now advertise the 69 as 2950fps.
Latest update. I bought a bunch of LC brass and cleaned out the primer pockets and reloaded with Varget. Got a little better results but still not what I want. So, I had a gunsmith bed the action and then I went to the range. Pretty much the same results. Tonight I took a dremel tool to the stock and floated the tang. Tomorrow I'm headed to the range again to see if that improves anything. I will just use factory ammo tomorrow and give time for the barrel to cool between shots. We will see.
You need to quit jumping around so much. Now that you have the LC brass get out the H335 and some of the 50 or 55gr bullets. Make up some test loads varying the power charge by .3 to .5 gr. Keep each group separate, write on each shell with a sharpie what the exact load is. For example - 25.6 gr H335, 50 VMAX, 2.283 oal, Rem BR primer. Now pick a nice day and go to the range and shoot groups. Make sure the rifle is on the bags the same each shot. Hold the rifle exactly the same each time.
I found H335 works better with under 55gr bullets. H4895 and Varget for 69gr.
ssv, you have a good point. Although I loaded up a few rounds tonight to try at the range tomorrow with Varget before I read your post. Not to worry though, I have plenty of H335 and will get back to it.
mikgarus, I appreciate the OCW article and will study it closer to see if I can put it to use with my rifle.
So, another update. I grabbed a box of factory loaded Remington 55gr FMJ ammo to test my rifle. Could not hold a group to save my soul! Shots would go anywhere they wanted. High, low, left, right. Unbelievable. As I was putting empty brass back in the box I noticed the the necks of several had small splits at even points around the neck. I pulled a few live rounds and looked and them and found that several had DEEP crimps on the bullets. At least one was deep enough that it deformed the bullet! No way that stuff was going to shoot straight. So, once again accuracy has elluded me.
This afternoon I reloaded 15 rounds with the LC brass, and Varget charges of 25, 24 and 23 grains behind Nosler 55gr balistic tips. I also loaded up 10 rounds of 23 grains behind Barnes 69gr boat tail match kings. Tomorrow I'm headed back to the range with these latest handloads to see what happens.
Okay, I loaded up 15 rounds of Nosler 55gr Ballistic Tips. 5 each over 25, 24 and 23 grains of Varget. I also loaded up 10 rounds of Barnes 69gr Match Burners over 23 gr of Varget. The loads with 23 grs of Varget got the best groups. My buddy tells me that there is "no comparison" to the quality of the Berger bullets so today I bought a box of 70gr Berger VLDs. I'm looking forward to getting some of those loaded up and heading to the range.
Idaho
Reading your post shows you are having a lot of fun (and maybe a little agitation lol) loading and trying different bullet/powder combinations
I know what you are going through--been there
My suggestion to you is to take one powder and one bullet and work with that combo
Get the load worked out and then play with the bullet length (COL) If it doesn't work, move to another bullet or powder
I have noticed that with the 223, one tenth of a grain difference in powder charge will make a difference on the group
I would at least go in 1/2 grain increments with the varget loads you mentioned above and then break it down smaller around the best groups
Typically,there will be a a low powder charge that shoots well and a high powder charge that also shoots well
It all really depends on what you want to do & how far you want to take it in your quest for accuracy
An old timer told me years ago: "There is no end to it" He is right and I have to remind myself often LOL
I hope this helps, have fun & be safe
Jack
Last edited by JW; 03-07-2015 at 09:20 AM.
Well? Any update on accuracy? One question that has not been asked; how bad does your factory barrel copper foul? Part of your accuracy issues could be caused by that.
This has been educational if nothing else that's for sure. The Bergers did not deliver as hoped. And I have not been able to see the same accuracy from the same loads that gave me one inch groups in the past. Today at the range my buddy and I talked about the scope possibly being the problem. I have a Burris C4 4.5-14 5.56 scope mounted on the rifle. We discovered that the scope is maladjusted for parallax. (at least it seems that way) When I have the rifle on the bipod and butt on a rice bag when I move my eye back and forth the crosshairs move over the target. That's not good. The objective bell has parallax adjustment but I obviously did not know how to use it. (the instructions are vague) I researched parallax adjustment and think that may be my problem. Now, I can't wait to get home from work tomorrow to try to set the parallax for 100 yards. I did not know that the yardage marks on the bell housing should not be taken literally. I will try to find the sweat spot for several ranges and then head back to the rifle range to see what happens. Stay tuned.
It has been a month since my last update and a few things have changed. First, I've sent the Burris scope back for repair since it would not track horizontal adjustment when the elevation was turned from 300 to 100 yards. In it's place I've mounted a Vortex Diamondback HP with a side parallax adjustment. Nice scope and much easier to use than the Burris.
The next thing is I've started to use cleaners to get rid of copper fouling in the barrel. Don't really know if that is making a difference but it is something.
The last thing I've done is to pay attention to bullet seating depth relative to the lands. The only bullets long enough for that are 69 and 70 grain match bullets. I measured the distance to the lands with Berger 70 gr VLDs and set bullets at various depths getting closer as I went along to look for signs of stress in primers and cases. My last test load was 0.014 off the lands and gave me a 5/8 inch group center to center. I noticed that as the bullets got closer to the lands that the groups steadily shrunk. Now I've got more test loads with bullets seated even closer and I'm looking forward to getting to the range to try them out. For now I'm keeping the powder charges constant at 24 gr of H335 and plan to make very small changes as soon as I find the ideal seating depth.
While this is a fairly heavy bullet and will give slower velocities and less than idea trajectory at this point I don't really care. I just want an accurate load that I can count on to hit a small target when one presents itself.
I have to say that these longer OAL will not feed via the magazine because the bullet tip catches the very rim of the chamber and jams. If I go with this load I will have to have a gunsmith modify the chamber with a very slight feed ramp to accommodate that issue. At least I feel like I'm making progress.
The first and foremost problem I see you solved was jumping all over the place to find something consistent. The second thing you need to invest in is updated modern reloading books as this will help you. Thirdly you should spend sometime over at accurate shooter forums to learn the correct procedure to clean you gun to get the most out of it. Thirdly the barrel being factory may never shoot better than 5/8th's which isn't bad at all.
Willing to give back for what the sport has done for me!
You may be right about the factory barrel but for now I'm willing to continue to chase accuracy. Learning a lot and improving my trigger control counts for something. I had a gunsmith, who is the instructor for the local police sniper team, give me some instruction on cleaning the barrel and for now I'm going to follow that advice. I'm paying closer attention to details when setting up my press and dies. One thing I'm not doing yet is measuring each powder charge to the tenth of a grain. I'm just using the powder measure on the Dillon press but the H335 seems to meter pretty well.
Chase away my friend. But be fare warned, it may lead to burn out,and or start putting a dent in your wallet. As long as your having fun and have an open mind ,then go for it. It never ends dude,I promise
Advice noted. I'm also into fly fishing and motorcycles. Been pursuing those money pits for several years. I plan to take this one slowly as I can see no end to ways to spend money.
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