Having problems with 11VT in .223, firing pin going through primers..

[Exracer]

I have a SA 11VT in .223 with just under 400 rnds..Very accurate and no problems until recently..Last trip to the range it started poking the firing pin clean through the primer..Thought it was a primer problem but it does it with CCI 400 and Rem7 1/2s..All mixed brass or matched brass does'nt matter..Strange thing is it will do it to a few and then act normal with small reg looking dents..I dissasembled the bolt and found by reading on this forum that it has an Axis bolt with the two piece spring and spacer installed, and non adjustable pin..I measured the pin protrusion and it measures .055 which some say is std. savage assembly length..Rifle was purchased from Dick's around Christmas time this year..I am very happy with it but not now with primer leakage and pin sticking in primer and hard to extract the case..I reload my own ammo and have been very careful to not go to hot..Any suggestions short of returning the rifle to savage would be appreciated..Thanks in advance.... ExRacer

[darkker]

Far to few specifics about your reloading, but I suspect over pressure from one reason or another.
Have you properly trimmed your cases to the correct length? Have you chrono'd any of your load development, or just took a weight from a book as a standard?

[kkeene]

Could be a couple of things.

Your load could be too hot.

Your firing pin protrusion could be too much.

Excessive head space.

CCI 400 primer cups are thinner than BR4 or 450's, so I don't use them.

Keith

[Nor Cal Mikie]

First thought is excessive headspace. (Shoulders being pushed back too far when resizing and case too short for the chamber) Firing pin hits, round goes off, case gets slammed back against bolt face and firing pin, primers get pierced.
If the brass will rechamber after firing, reprime, reload. No full length resizing. Sounds like neck sizing is in order. All I use is CCI BR primers and NEVER had a poroblem.

[Robinhood]

Could be a couple of things.

Your load could be too hot.

Your firing pin protrusion could be too much.

Excessive head space.

CCI 400 primer cups are thinner than BR4 or 450's, so I don't use them.

Keith

Your rifle has not changed. The variable that is introduced is the reloader. I wonder if any of the primers are backed out. If you have pierced primers other issues are about to manifest.

[Nor Cal Mikie]

Also, if the case is too short for the chamber, (headspace issue from being resizing too small) when the round goes off, the case being shorter will let the primer back out of the pocket and get pierced by the firing pin. Pierced, pushed back in the pocket and having the false look of over pressure.
And headspace can be anywhere. Not an issue if you resize your brass to match those measurements.

[gotcha]

At 400+ rounds it wouldn't hurt to give bolt lugs and bolt lug shelf a thorough cleaning. Then take one of the cases that was difficult to extract and slowly turn the die into the press (1/16 turn at a time) until bolt handle closes with light pressure at bottom of stroke. Set the die lock ring firmly. If this doesn't solve your problem let us know so we can pursue other possible causes. Lotsa' sage advise from the respondents ! BTW you can google: rifle primer dimensions chart to get specs. on primer thicknesses and actual dimensions. Good luck!!

[J.Baker]

As Robinhood pointed out, focus on what changed just before the problem surfaced. Since the rifle was shooting fine prior to this, it's a safe bet that the cause lies with the reloaded ammo or one of the components therein. Of course, you gave no information to us in that regard so all the above are essentially educated guesses and spit-balling.

New lot of powder?
New lot of primers?
Different bullets or seating depth?
Dies weren't setup right this time?

[Exracer]

Sorry I havn't got back to all of you shooters and thank you for all your concerns.. This is my update..Tonight I tried a go guage and it chambers fine, the no go won't let me start the handle to lock a round..Now the ammo is all fire formed in this chamber from the past few months..I used a RCBS .223 neck sizer on all the brass..Powders used are Benchmark and Varget..The Benchmark rounds are 24.5 and 25gr with Hornady 55gr V-max OAL set at 2.240 in mixed brass, some PMC, FC and LC..All brass is 1.750 to start with..The Varget loads are 26gr with Sierra 69mk's set at .020 off the lands, Lapua brass thats on its 3rd firing that I purchased new..This load will group 4 shots at 7/8 inch at 200yds..It will take out golf balls at 300yds..Now the hot load question= Varget is supossed to not be temp sensitive..I don't know about Benchmark? Most of my shooting this spring and summer the temp has been around high of 79/85*..Last saturday when this issue started it was about 92* and barrel temp was 113/117*..It has never been much over 110* before..The powder containers(batch) have been used since May without issues..It appears that the firing pin sticks out alot but measures correct..It is the Axis style 1 piece non-adjustable..If I could adjust it shorter it seems like the problem would be gone??I have been using the CCI-400 primers for 2 yrs in my AR and since December in this rifle without any problems..Some were little flattened so I backed off the powder at that time(about a year ago with the AR)..Recently, this past april I started using the Rem 7 1/2 BR primers and reduced my group size by quite a lot so I have stayed with them..I have used about 200 Rems so far..About the same amount of CCI-400...Hope this will help you guys figuire out this problem...Thanks for all the help---Exracer

[Exracer]

I also forgot to mention that the primers that did not perferate had little craters around the pin dent..Hope all of this info helps...Thanks --Exracer

[gotcha]

I also forgot to mention that the primers that did not perferate had little craters around the pin dent..Hope all of this info helps...Thanks --Exracer

Had same problem with my .223 Mod. 12......... The crater is result of excessive clearance between F/P & F/P hole allowing primer to swage itself around the F/P and flow into the area of excess clearance. Each of the 3 types of cases you mention will have varying capacity. The same charge in all 3 cases could easily result in one case type producing excessive pressure particularly, in hot weather. Gre-tan rifles can bush your F/P hole to match the diameter of the F/P solving that problem.......... There is still the possibility of excess CARTRIDGE head space. Measure cartridge H/S before and after sizing (remove primer 1st) to confirm H/S hasn't changed during your neck sizing operation. If you don't have a CARTRIDGE H/S gauge any cylindrical object that will fit over the case neck and make contact with the shoulder will give you a good comparative reading. Again, good luck :)....... A FIRED 6.5MM or 7MM cartridge case will slip over the neck of your .223 case & act as a CARTRIDGE H/S gauge. also some .32 cal. pistol cases will work.

[Mallard57]

Could the tip of your firing pin be damaged by the hot gases leaking?

[Exracer]

Thanks Gotcha, I will do more measuring tonight or tomorrow...Will see what we have..

[Exracer]

Firing pin tip looks new..I thought the same thing at the range when it started acting up..When I took the bolt apart it was pretty dry where the pin goes through the bolt head..I would guess from the gasses coming back through the hole in the primer..

[gotcha]

Exracer, It occurred to me that you can bring your chamber H/S gauge into play also. Ideally your cartridge H/S should be .001" to .002" SHORTER than your chamber go- gauge. ( for bolt guns) If you have a F/L die, using it would force the shoulder forward. Then you can adjust the die to give you the clearance mentioned above. My suggestions may not be the answer to your problem but, a good step toward trouble shooting. Keep on keepin' on :)

[tomme boy]

My 223 does the same thing. Like was said, the hole for the firing pin is too large. I just run CCI mag primers with the thicker cup and not had any sense.

[darkker]

and not had any sense.

While that may be the case, don't admit that out loud.

[Lorenzo]

The 11VT is the Dicks exclusive right? Wide fore end on the stock, nice fat bull barrel (looks fatter than any other production savages I've seen. If they had a 20" in 7mm08 I would already have one. Only thing I dont like is the standard style bold handle, to me a big bull barrel needs a big bolt handle. Sorry not to Hijack but can you change out savage bolt handles for others? wonder if they are a one of at dicks because they had certain parts to get rid of and put the gun together that way? Nothing wrong with that but is an 11 series supposed to have a axis bolt?

[gotcha]

Exracer, OOPS! my bad. Since your go-gauge chambers with ease you'd be better advised to match your sized case head space dimension to the go-gauge. Since the various cases you're shooting will have different amounts of spring back based on alloy and number of times fired (work hardened) a little experimenting with the depth of your die should establish a die setting that works for all your cases.

[BillPa]

My 223 does the same thing. Like was said, the hole for the firing pin is too large.

Actually I haven't found the fit between the pin hole to be too large, but the profile of the pin tip itself allowing a gap between the hole when it strikes a primer. Two pins...


The one on the left is original on a taper, on the right one I re-contoured to a radius. IIRC the taper from the tip to the shank extended back ~.030". The one on the right about .010".

The same two pins set to .020" protrusion or about the maximum a pin will indent a primer cup.


The factory taper on the factory pin on the left allows a gap for the primer cup to flow into resulting in cratered and or blanked primers whereas the one on the right is still it's full diameter in the pin hole @ .020" with .010" to spare.

Bill

[gotcha]

Great pics BillPa, proving there's more than one way to skin a cat :) Exracer claims his F/P is non-adjustable type & has about .055" protrusion. Perhaps his simply re-tapering the F/P tip would be an improvement. You've inspired me to take another look at my Mod. 12 bolt. I like saving money with DIY :) Now we need to hear from Exracer Hint Hint

[Exracer]

I measured the pin and the pin hole clearance..I have a diff of .0025 surely not much free play going on there..The AXIS non adj pin is in it so I shimmed it where it bottoms on bolt surface inside when it goes forward..I made a shim of .013 so now I have a protrusion of .042..Looks like might be too much yet? I do like the pin point change BillPa has done on his..Did you spin it in a lathe? I am a doit myself person...Thanks guys for all the help..Exracer

[BillPa]

Did you spin it in a lathe?

No, a belt sander w/120 belt by rotating it while moving it in an arc.

Bill

[Exracer]

Thanks BillPa, I'm going to try do it to mine...I hope to try my shorter version tomorrow or late next week and then retaper it..Exracer

[gotcha]

EXRACER........... PLEASE let us know how it all works out so more followers can benefit.