Reply With QuoteRe-sellability for sure. I have a mil/moa swfa ss but I like math. If I wasn't trying to save a buck I would have bout mil mil, less thinking.
Been reading a lot on this topic since I'm shopping for glass...
One MOA is roughly 1" at 100... I know its not exactly 1" but for my purposes here it works.
One Mil is 3.6" at 100...
Most scopes on the market adjust as 1/4 MOA for those with MOA adjustments... for those with Mil adjustments the adjustment is .1 Mil
So... each click of an MOA based scope moves the POI .25 inches; each click of a Mil based scope moves the POI .36 inches
Aside from the benefit of matching a reticle which is in mils what is the apparent benefit of using Mils in a scope when MOA is a finer adjustment?
Or am I crazy?
Re-sellability for sure. I have a mil/moa swfa ss but I like math. If I wasn't trying to save a buck I would have bout mil mil, less thinking.
Don't forget: you can now get moa based reticles from many top name scopes. So you can get matching reticle and turret scopes in moa as well.
No two ways about it, the 1/4 moa is a finer adjustment than a tenth mil............your on track.
I shoot ALLOT at distance using a laser rangefinder, so............. don't much care about reticles as long as they are uncluttered and fine enough not to cover my target.
Because I use a laser and know how to dial my scope.........matching or not makes a big fat -0- diference.
My point is... if you can have matching MOA/MOA vs matching Mil/Mil... why would one prefer the Mil/Mil when the MOA/MOA is a finer adjustment? Assuming the exact same reticle pattern so there isn't any "I prefer this reticle over that reticle".
Match the reticle to the adjustment. Its much easier to measure with the reticle to make adjustments that way. Like already stated 1/4 MOA is .25" roughly and .1 mil is .36" at 100 yards......I don't know many people (other than my friends that shoot benchrest) that can hold .11" difference at 100 or 1.1" at 1000 yards. I shoot both MILs and MOA at extreme distance and if anything MILs is easier for me.
Doug
Sticks and stones may break my bones but hollow points expand on impact.
If its easier for you then that makes sense... for me though it would seem if MOA converts much closer/easier to inches on target (1" at 100, 2" at 200 etc.) it would be easier to adjust groups on paper than trying to do the inches off target to mil conversion...Originally Posted by dk17hmr
If you have a moa reticle/moa adjustments (yes, I know the difference is .11" and for all intents and purposes is nominal) which are finer than a mil/mil set up and the angle subtends closer to a linear inch at known distances... for the beginner to longer range shooting (like me) would seem that MOA would be an easier place to start
If you use mils very long it will get just as easy.
It really makes no difference......pick one......(or the other) and train with it.
In the end they are both simple once you get use to it.
If a miss is measured with your reticle and your turrets match the reticle it really doesn't matter.
Last spring I took my bosses husband out to shoot 1 mile, on the first shot he was looking through a very nice spotting scope and I and blown the wind call. Bullet impacted about 20 feet right I simply measured over with me reticle made the adjustment on my scope and shot again while he was still trying to figure out how far in feet the bullet was off the target. Don't over think it. Knowing 10" is about 1 moa at 1000 yards is nice but when you get someone completely new to spotting and they call your shots in feet and not moa.....
I cant stress it enough the biggest thing is matching your reticle to your turrets.....the debate over MOA and MILs, Ford and Chevys, Blondes and Redheads will continue, but if you can measure your shots without coming off the rifle that's really all that matters.
Doug
Sticks and stones may break my bones but hollow points expand on impact.
Yep, what the others have said, as long as the turrets and reticle match you're good. I can't hold the .11 difference but I can tell you it is a whole lot easier to count by 10.:)
a lot of guys using mil scopes do so because they are military or ex-military LE or ex-LE so they were trained using mils...and then a lot of guys using mil scopes do so because its "cool" or because they think that mils are the holy grail of scopes. get what you think is going to be best for you...im not a math major so i went MOA and i think MOA is easier for most shooters to learn and also to make fast range estimations.
if you have a cabelas,sportsmans,scheels or other big sporting goods store near you most will take you outside to look through scopes...look through several scopes and fine one you like and while looking through them try to look at small targets at 500yds or so because like D.ID said the reticle thickness is important...if its to thick it will cover small targets.
Now the next time that happens (forget measuring then dialing) and try this regardless of where the bullet hit.
Hold the same aiming point you held for the miss.
Then hold the gun steady on target and dial the scope to the hit/miss.
Try it on paper at a couple hundred yards first if you like. Its sometimes referred to as 1 shot zero.
Also when using a multi dot reticle or any reticle, where ever the bullet hits just hold that hit location on target and shoot. No dialing.
Most experienced long range hunters hold over on follow up shots without addittional dialing.
Mistakes happen more often when the excitment level is raised. I try to watch if the
shooter dials the scope after a shot.
Youd be surprised how many times i see them turning the wrong way. KEEP IT SIMPLE. Do as little as possible by way of dialing to make the shot.
I can understand the desire to impress ourselves and friends by dialing for hits at long distances.
But it isnt as easy when your shooting at live big game targets.
That works great if you can keep the gun perfectly still and at the exact same spot you held when you took the previous shot if you move the gun once you start turning the turrets then you are back to square one.Now the next time that happens (forget measuring then dialing) and try this regardless of where the bullet hit.
Hold the same aiming point you held for the miss.
Then hold the gun steady on target and dial the scope to the hit/miss.
Like others have said the most important thing is having matching turrets/reticle I prefer mils because that's what I am now used to, but I will add that for ranging with the reticle I think using mils is easier (although most civilian shooters probably don't have a need to range long range targets with a scope reticle) Mil turrets can be adjusted faster for long range dial ups precisely because they are not as preciseas MOA turrets. For me I like ringing steel at long ranges I am not really a bench rest shooter going for the absolute tiniest one hole five shot group.
MOA and MIL each have their place and it all depends on what type of shooting you do.
MOA as you've noticed offers finer adjustment (even more so with the 1/8 MOA click option if available). As such MOA is preferred by precision shooters where targets are generally smaller making finer adjustments a necessity.
MIL clicks cover a greater distance and are best suited for shooting larger targets where pinpoint shot placement isn't as critical, or where you will be shooting at varied distances and need to quickly dial your scope up/down quite frequently.
It all boils down to shot placement and how critical being able to as closely match up your point of impact up to your point of aim is. At shorter distances it's not as noticeable and won't make much of a different, but when you get out to 600+ yards it starts to become apparent and could mean the difference between an bullseye shot and an 8 ring shot, or a hit or miss on a small critter like a groundhog or prairie dog.
You also have to take into consideration which makes more sense to you. Most of is think in inches and feet here in the U.S. so the MOA concept is much easier to grasp and understand. MIL is fairly easy to understand once you acclimate yourself to it so long as both your reticle and adjustments are MIL.
"Life' is tough. It's even tougher if you're stupid." ~ John Wayne
“Under certain circumstances, urgent circumstances, desperate circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.” —Mark Twain
A great lesson on MILS and MOA......................http://snipershide.scout.com/story/1...-right-for-you
I agree with above. I am brand new to long range / scoped rifles and MOA makes more sense to me.
Ended up going with MOA... just because its what I'm more used to. Not that learning mils would be a difficult endeavor; however since my other scopes are in MOA doesn't make sense to try to learn something new just for the sake of learning something new.
In any case... 2 days until its on my doorstep; getting worse than a kid waiting for Christmas!
Ill be in Driftwood PA god willing by about mid June. Ive never even looked into a mil scope let alone use one.
Id love to be educated by someone who can show me how good they are for ranging etc. as compared to moa
and a rangefinder. Even with the leaves we can find ample targets from the front yard.
If you use Mil or MOA you can range estimate as long as you have a marked reticle and know what the distance between the markings subtends to.... first focal plane reticles help because the distance never changes with magnification but even with a SFP scope you can use reticle markings to estimate range (most require you to be on max power).
Well im not argueing that isnt true. Mind you 60 years ago people were telling me we could range acuratly with a 1 minit dot also. You know 1 inch at 100, 10" at 1000 etc.
Well ive had some one minit dots and i cant range very well with them. And ive not met anybody else who can at any real distance with any degree of accuracy.
I want to hear somebody say that rock over there is 850 yds plus or minus a few yards. And then confirm that with a rangfinder or by hitting the rock with the first shot or come within inches. And ill be picking the rocks.
BUT, i could be wrong about mil reticles ill admit. SO, since my trip to PA will take me thru parts of Georgia, both the Carolinas,
and both Virginia and W. Virginia, let me say ill come to you, whoever will show me how to do this. I have a camper and i dont really care
how long it takes me to get to PA. I will go out of my way, even to Tenn. or Kentucky if necessary to learn about this.
I'll be on my way back from a trip to Cali... will actually be returning to the Phila. area before heading back south... not sure how far that is from Driftwood...
Using a 1 MOA dot would be nearly impossible as you would have to figure out how many of those dots cover the target. Also, one key feature is knowing the approximate/average size of the target so random rocks would be difficult. If you know, for instance, the average width of a human torso is 18 inches or the average shoulder height of a white tail buck is 36 inches... then you can use the reticle to measure how many minutes wide or tall the target is... say the deer example your reticle has the deer as 12 minutes... your estimated range will be about 300 yards. Keep in mind the further out you go the more than pesky ".05" of 1.05 inches per minute become... a 5% error within 200 or 300 yards won't be enough to cause a total miss; but at 500+ along with variances in target size that factor can throw you off a good bit. For quick, on the fly estimation it works as just that... an on the fly best estimate. If you have the time and equipment... laser all day long. Here is a decent youtube video too... explains better than I can.
When shopping for a scope for my 308, the advice I received was to get a mil/mil scope, and learn to work in meters rather than yards. I would be able to range targets using the mildots. I have a mil/mil scope and have never used it to range a target other than to range a paper/steel target of known dimensions. When I was shopping, the long range matches I am familiar with required ranging targets before taking the shot. Now rangefinders are the standard. I think ranging was taking a lot of time. For tactical and long range hunting applications, a mil/mil scope is the right choice. I will use mine for neither. I have learned to think in mils. I am still dialing follow-up shots, but I am working on using the dots for follow-ups. I can't get the scope back on target very well, so I usually don't see the splash, and rely on a spotter. The point of this is that although I've learned to use the mildot scope fairly well, it's probably not necessary as I'm not ranging targets.
Mil/mil and learning to range and calculate in meters to me is reinventing the wheel though when I already know inches/yards. As long as the reticle matches the adjustments (mil/mil or MOA/moa) the process is simple once you practice it... Problem is for many scopes there is this weird marriage of mil based reticles and MOA based adjustment. Then you add another step to the math to convert what you range in the scope to what you dial on the turret. If you are using a chronograph to get initial approximations on velocities to input into a ballistic calculator going to mils and meters requires another conversion too; although most calculators will do this for you there still has to be a conversion between fps and mps. Again not saying mil based systems are wrong or denying they have some advantages; just to me the math is easier and I'm already familiar with MOA
I started watching the video but due to interuptions no doubt caused by my setup i lost patience and closed it down.
In his opening remarks he said it all. (ON A TARGET OF KNOWN DIMENSIONS)
And of coarse the (target) will most likely also be at a KNOWN DISTANCE, like say 1000 yds.
So in actuality its showing you how to get the bullet from point A to point B on a (target) by using the reticle.
At least thats where the video was when i shut it down.
Listen, anybody who wants to take the very few days they (might) get each year hunting, and rely on this type B S is just fine with me.
Take it to the bank that as for (hunting) thats just what it is, B S.
My offer remains open for anybody really interested in finding out for them selves first hand.
We can run thru some (virtual) hunting scenarios while wearing t shirts.
As for dialing MS50, most experienced hunters wont be dialing for follow up shots unless it was a wide margin miss or theres been a significent distance change between shots.
And even that might vary depending on the distance involved or the possibility of a tree branch stepping into the bullet path.
Problem here to a large degree is that (theory) is being used in an attempt to overcome the lack of on the job experience.
Look ignore everything ive said, most will anyway. Call Euro Optics who sell only the best of optics. Ask to talk with Jason Baney who runs the sales dept.
He also runs the 6 BR website. Tell him your interested in starting long range shooting/hunting and your interested in obtaining a scope
with a reticle you can both shoot well and range game with also. They sell Vortex also and nobody would be more knowledgable than he would be
to discuss this with. Including the guy in the video.
BarrelNuts, Driftwood would be about a 5 hr drive from the Philly airport. Pittsburg would be about 1 1/2 hrs closer.
If you can arrainge some time you would be welcome to come. I would simply show you the various equiptment we use and how we use it.
Then you can use it and judge for yourself. I will make one prediction, within a few hours you will change your mind pertaining to what
you now know or think you know about long range hunting. And you will do that all on your own with no preaching or teaching on my part.
If you can shoot a one inch group you will hit 1000 yd rocks with a gun you never shot before and laugh over how easy it was.
I will hand you a gun and have you hit rocks first shot without touching the scope. And its about a 30 year old scope. Again, you will do it not me.
How about offhand, are you ready for that?
Bring your scope, i'll furnish everything else including the beverages.
I'm not arguing that using a range finder isn't BETTER and like I said earlier if you know the width/height of a target you can estimate range using a reticle that is properly set up. Its not an exact number however in the absence of a range finder its better than making a WAG. With regards to hunting... my definition of long range when taking shots at something living that I run the risk of severely maiming by my goof up is 300 yards currently; and that is if the conditions are suitable. For hunting purposes I don't worry about ranging a target with anything as I'm pretty good at eyeball estimating out to that distance and I have marking flags every 50 yards out to 300. Hunting rifle is zeroed at 200... at 300 its 6" below POA... minor hold adjustment and it works.
What you said regarding "Theory" is simply not true however... its math. I'm not saying your method doesn't work better; I don't even know what that method is... my point is simply that using reticles that have a known subtend in either MOA or MIL (either in FFP or at the proper magnification for a SFP reticle) against a target that is a known size (or, in the case of hunting known average like the shoulder height of a deer mentioned earlier; or in combat the average width of a human torso...) you can use a fairly simple mathematical formula to estimate the range to that target. Close enough for scout sniper teams to score hits using this method (mil based reticles in both military rifle scopes and spotting scopes for many years) rapidly under duress before range finders were used/available. MOA and Mils are nothing more than a measure of angle... using them to estimate range is nothing more than basic geometry applied to the real world. Just like anything else, imperfect input gives imperfect results; if you are using an "average" as mentioned before the range estimate is not going to be as accurate as if you were shooting at a 12" gong. With your example of shooting rocks there is no real way to estimate since you have no way of approximating the target size. So as I said... not arguing that your method isn't better, my point is that range estimation using a reticle isn't just a theory; its math. The extension of applying it to dialing a dope to shoot with is a whole 'nother can of worms altogether... one I am less versed in than the mathematical application of angles/geometry unfortunately; but working on it
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