Reply With QuoteTrigger, neck tension, bullet/recipe/load workup, scope quality/mounting issue.
can't get good groupings
hi everyone,i'm trying to develop a .223 round for my axis and not having much luck,i am in the bull but groups are severely lacking!
i measured the seating depth and got 2.340 so i started to seat the bullets at 2.322 (0.018 off lands),2.320 (0.020 off lands) and 2.318 (0.022 off lands).
using 25gn of varget topped with a 55gn vmax projectile all cases are trimmed to 1.750.
the 2.320 grouped best at 0.020 off the lands but my goal is to tighten up the groups,some say i have the wrong model for that type of accuracy and i should look into a target,precision or law enforcement models from savage.
i'm using a 6-24x50 scope so i have a great view but to my great surprise i shot my buddy's tikka t3 hunter with a 3-9x44 with 25gn varget,55gn vmax seated at 0.022 off his lands and had no problems making clover leaves on the target at 100 yards,so it's not me.lol
one person said to stretch the bullet out further,even to the point of touching the lands?
any tips or recommendations would be greatly appreciated!
Trigger, neck tension, bullet/recipe/load workup, scope quality/mounting issue.
Blink
I have no answers, only another question; how did you determine how far off the lands the bullet is?
tommyt
PS robnhod suggests, among many things, "trigger". You might go back abt a month and check my experience with that.
I wrote out a really long comment then erased it because it made me sound like a dick. What size are your groups? Are you using the same brand brass? What test are you using to develop your load?
[QUOTE=fgw_in_fla;256183]We told you so...[/QUOTE]
well perhaps it's crude and not real accurate but i used a round with slices in the neck to allow it to push in when seated and measured it repeatedly and got a consistent reading of 2.340.i figured it will at least give me a rough starting point and i can adjust from there.
brass is all once fired federal and remington brass.
i'm somewhat new to reloading .223 so any advice is appreciated,just thought the best place to start is with other savage shooters.
i'm not expecting someone to give me a perfect load but a good starting point would sure help.
i read many posts saying that 25gn of varget for 55gn vmax worked well and being a mid range safe load i went with it.
i measure and weight everything at least twice for consistency so my rounds are identical.
again,it's all about a starting point and fine tune from there,question then would be what is a good starting point?
A good place to start is with a ladder test, shot over a chronograph if possible. Once this has given you a powder charge to start with you can work on the seating depth. Start at the lands if your magazine will allow you to load that long, many won't. Also ensure that at least one caliber of bullet is inside the case neck, ie .22" for your 223. Then move back .005 or .007 or .010 (pick whatever number you want) at a time. You will likely find a range of seating depths that your rifle prefers. Don't expect anything dramatic.
The Hornaday manual shows a load using Varget starting at 22.8 gr and maxing out at 26.4 for 3200 FPS. Interestingly, the magic velocity for 223 seems to be 3240 FPS, at least that is what a lot of commercial loads are set to.
Anyway, I too have a Savage in 223, but it's a model 12 varmint, but here is what I have learned from this great group of guys on this website. Keep in mind that I am an amateur, but if I get anything wrong here, someone will surely chime in with better advice.
Start by loading 3 rounds each with powder weights in .3 gr increments from minumum to maximum. Be sure to keep them well organized so you know what you are shooting. Keep records as you shoot, where the shot lands, etc.
Clean the fouling, but not the copper from your barrel.
At the range, shoot one round from group one into target one, one round from group 2 into target 2, etc. until you have shot all 3 rounds from all groups. Take your time and don't rush. Hot barrels shoot wildly and this could take a day or two at the range to get through all the groups if you in a hot spell.
You are looking for two consecutive targets that show little change in group size. You might have one such indication on the low velocity side, and one again near max velocity. These are called NODES, and it is where your barrel is vibrating the least as the bullet exits the muzzle, good for consistency.
Once you have a good node identified, you can start moving the bullet closer or further away from the lands. You'll need a tool to measure to the Ogive, not the tip of the bullet, and a better tool to measure to the lands. Hornaday makes both, but there are others.
I seat all my bullets using the ogive measurement, checking everyone as I load.
Lastly, what works in my gun will probably not work so well in yours, even if you had the exact same model. By performing the Optimal Charge Weight work up (above) you will find your answer for your particular gun and cartridge combination.
Have fun!
Oh, and if I came off as sounding like a dick, please accept my heartfelt apology. Just trying to help.
I'm fairly new as well. I didn't mean anything by my post except it was poorly worded on my part when I read over it. An OAL tool and comparitor is a fairly cheap tool to purchase. I use hornadys. there are others that just use a socket. I was asking about the size of your groups because i wanted to compare to other .223 I have shot and developed loads for. Also is 25gn of varget the only load you have tried? There are oodles of ways to develop loads. My current process is to find the recommended min/max in a few of my reloading manuals and compare them then decide on a common min/max and divide it into as equal as possible gn steps. I.E. min 22gn max 24.5gn I use 22.0, 22.3, 22.6, 22.9, 23.2, 23.5, 23.8, 24.1, 24.3, 24.5. I like 10 steps in my ladder! Just my preference. so lets say 22.3 shoots .78" and 24.1 shoot .72" @100 yards. My next step is to take those two steps and adjust in .005 increments from .010 off the lands to .040. I have not had one like to be any closer then .010 off the lands so I generally just start there. If I am not happy i may move closer to the lands but I typically find a nice depth that closes the group a significant amount.
[QUOTE=fgw_in_fla;256183]We told you so...[/QUOTE]
Originally Posted by Texas10
LOL! I was rewriting as you posted. I second this sentiment!
[QUOTE=fgw_in_fla;256183]We told you so...[/QUOTE]
You might be surprised at just how easy a bullet will tend to stick in the throat when you insert that homemade chamber guage in the chamber. Then as you extract it it might momentarily grab that bullet and pull it out of the case neck slightly. The more accurate method would be to first use a Hornady or similar OAC guage to determine distance to lands followed with a RCBS MIC guage to be sure your modified case used with the tool is the same dimensions as your cases used for actual loading. When I use the tool, even with almost zero pressure, the bullet hangs in the throat and I need to put a cleaning rod down the barrel to push it back out. Try starting at .018 -.020 short of the lands and then start lengthening your rounds in increments of .001 to .002 if the groups tighten continue this lengthening by .001" till they either open back up or you contact the lands. If there's no difference say contacting the lands or a few thou off then go with the few thou short as it will tend to keep your chamber pressures safe.
lol,nobody is coming off as a dick!
awesome info and i will try the ladder test to see how i make out......
i have a hornady bullet comparator on order and will ask tomorrow about an aoc gauge.no chronograph yet but it's on my wish list.lol
i just started to use varget and have only tried the one load of 25gns.only shot 120 rnds so far,half in my savage and the other half in a tikka.
i could not help but notice that every reloading manual has different min-max numbers;harnady is a min of 22.8 and a max of 26.4gns,lyman is 25.0-27.8 max.
i would say that 25gns is rather robust but without a chrony it's a mystery i guess.
there is certainly a lack of accessories in my area,even cabela's here in canada has no comparators or oal gauges,they have about 1/4 of what the u.s. cabela's has,but my local outfitter is very knowlegeable and can order anything.
if i were to use the hornady manual's load data with 22.8 being the min and 26.4,i should start at the 22.8 and work my way up in powder charge in incraments of .3 till the groups tighten up and from there adjust the oal to further tighten things up?
as far as oal for now,use the recomended 2.250?
Can't comment on the best load for the Axis, but my son's been FTR target shooting using a stock Model 12 VLP .233 with 26" barrel 1:7 twist.
For competition we load 24.7 gr ADI2208 - Varget equivalent - in Norma cases with 80 gr A-Max projectiles.
We're now seating about 0.010 from the lands - as measured with a Hornady OAC.
Within a few months my son was shooting competitively with more experienced shooters out to 1000 yards.
It is possible to get good results with some work.
My question would be what are you developing the round for?
Target shooting? Hunting? What accuracy do you require?
How much work are you willing to put into your reloading?
This video might help or might not. Also look into the optimum powder charge method. It's where you first determine what is your optimal charge and then using that charge weight start playing with seating depth. There's a link to it somewhere here in this section of the forum. It's been my experience that the optimum charge weight usually falls somewhere close to the middle.
http://www.savageshooters.com/showth...sion-reloading
I usually find a good node at the min side and one at the max side, but not always. my .270 win with h1000 was right in the middle and horrible on either side of the charge range, but with 4831 it had one in the min area and one in the max area
[QUOTE=fgw_in_fla;256183]We told you so...[/QUOTE]
i mostly hunt paper lol,so i guess i'm looking at target shooting.my range is only 200 yards so i don't think that's asking alot,i can't imagine 1000 yards!
looking around for a source in canada for the oal gauge and comparator.
i bookmarked the video and downloaded it as well so i can watch it anywhere.
theres a part two to the video also. It is pretty long but I found it well worth my time to watch.
If you can't get one there I would be willing to pick one up and mail it to you just cover the cost. But I would think it would be cheaper for you to get it sourced locally.
[QUOTE=fgw_in_fla;256183]We told you so...[/QUOTE]
Will check with the web when I'm done work.
If shipping is decent.might just order it from cabela's u.s. site,will be faster than waiting for local outfitter.
I like H335 for the 55 grain boolits.
Just to throw another log on the fire. 55 grainers fly the best out of my AR in front of CFE223. I only say that to add you may try a few different powders. I don't have the setup some do around here and I have at least a dozen different types of 1 lbs powder can on the shelf. I only have one jug and that is 4831 for the .270 win. I was actually going to sell a few cans that I bought and didn't like for the application before I was so wisely informed by the gentleman in my sig to save them you never know what you may find will work later for a different weight bullet or caliber you start loading for. I.E. the new caliber I am loading 7mm RUM and the can of H1000 that I did not like in my .270 win.
[QUOTE=fgw_in_fla;256183]We told you so...[/QUOTE]
well i ordered the hornady bullet comparator and the hornady oal gauge with .223 rem insert today from cabela's in the u.s.a.,at least that way i know they will be here in 7-14 days.
i will wait till then to start loading all my min to max loads to guarantee i am seating at the recommended depth to start with!
i will check into getting some h335 if i can find it.lol and give it a go as well.
again,i'd like to thank you all for setting me on the right track!
Blink you still have not told us what size the groups are that you are getting.
"And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” John 8:32 (New King James Version)
my groups measured approx 2-4 inch inches but that was with different seating lengths all running 25gn of the varget.
As others have stated try a ball powder. BLC-2, CFE-223, H335, H332 are some that come to mind real quick.
"And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” John 8:32 (New King James Version)
next time i'm at cabela's or local outfitter,i'll check for some h335 as well,see how that fairs out after the varget ladder test.
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