Reply With QuoteAbout the same amount of time it took me to catch big fish every time i go.
Some of us are born liers and with some of us it takes awhile. lol
Good guns tend to be helpfull though.
how much practice did it take you to get to the point where you could shoot 1/2 moa off a sand bag. how about off a bipod?
assuming of course that you had a bolt gun and ammo capable of doing that.
About the same amount of time it took me to catch big fish every time i go.
Some of us are born liers and with some of us it takes awhile. lol
Good guns tend to be helpfull though.
Chief, I have been shooting for over 40 years and still I chase the one hole group. Oh I've done it just not enough to brag about it. It takes an over whelming amount of load development getting to know your gun, your range, breathing, trigger squeeze, just to name a few things. Practice in this case does not always mean perfect but it is fun to do. Then you decide to change disciplines go from group to score to service rifle then just for hunting.
It is a never ending challenge. But don't give up half MOA isn't all that difficult, but then you will chase the quarter MOA, then the one hole. Then start over with a different gun. Don't worry about just shoot and have fun it will come.
FROGGY
See profile for fire arms
Do it today there maybe no tomorrow
I used to shoot svc rifle competitions; was never great but was more about having fun and improving as a marksman than winning anything. I grew up shooting off hand with a pellet gun, then .22, and moved up from there. I know my abilities and would consider myself an "above average" shooter. That being said, you have three things going against you when it comes to trying to get the "one hole group": Shooter inconsistency, rifle inconsistency, and ammo inconsistency. No matter how tight your tolerances are, there is going to be SOME variation between one loaded piece of ammo and the next; some variation between one shot fired and the next in regards to barrel resonance; and no matter how still you may be, or how perfectly you apply marksmanship skills there will be some variance in you between shots. Everyone who is interested in precision shooting does what they can and what they feel reasonable to eliminate as many of these variances as we can; from weighing brass and bullets to using precision machined parts in the rifles we shoot to practicing how we shoot... its part of a total system. Sometimes those variances and the sun and moon and jupiter align and you get that nice one ragged hole group. Other times the pendulum swings the other way and you end up with a much larger group than the norm... the better you, your reloading practices, and your equipment are the less the pendulum swings.
Your comment sums up the other two nicelyOriginally Posted by yobuck
thanks for sharing your experience. I was trying to decide on the chambering to go with ( i plan to reload all the way ) and i was thinking of the 12 lrp in 6.5 creedmoor.
however if it would take me very long to reach the skill level where i could actually make use of the range capabilities of this cartridge, i would rather go with a 222 or 223.
So taking care of a lot of variables, suppose I were to start practicing on a Rig and hand loaded ammo that was known to be consistent .3 moa ( someone's competition gun eg.) how many rounds of dedicated trigger time with honest squeezes would it take to get my skill up to the rifle's capabilities (say a 222 where the lands won't move much, another variable gone). i know still very subjective, but i need something to go on. ( i have experience on pellet guns and 22s mostly off hand )
Something like a .223 that is cheap on plinking ammo and has a ton of components available for reloading would be a good start for target shooting. If this is a used rifle you are buying that someone else has "proofed" to consistently shoot .3moa find out what load recipe they are using and you should be at least close to good; unless the barrel is at the point where accuracy is starting to degrade. But to your original question how many trigger pulls? How many can you make in a day? Practice doesn't make perfect; perfect practice makes perfect. Make sure you practice well and don't just go blast ammo for the sake of trying to reach some magic number of rounds that will make you a better shooter. Spend a lot of time with that .22... More people have learned to shoot and shoot well on a .22 than anything else I'd wager; cheap to feed and no recoil so you don't develop a flinch.
Chief,
These guys are spot on, there's no magic number to get you there. Ill give you an example. Ive got a bone stock 112 in 22-250, when I first got it, I shot ALOT! I was in college 4 days a week and worked part time so time wasnt an issue. My buddy had just built a rem 700, 6br, shilen barrel etc.....I could outshoot him 9 days out of 10. Why? Because I shot my gun all the time and new knew how it felt, what it liked etc. Was my gun better? Nope.....I think (know) his gun would have out shot mine any day had the right shooter messed with it. He didnt shoot and work up loads much but if it was expensive it had to be better (his thought process). Just saying if you start with a known good accurate cartridge and practice, work up good loads, practice (did I mention good practice ) it will come. Part of the fun is getting there!
Good luck!
Scooter
thanks for sharing your experience guys, have a much better picture now.
As long as the rifle and ammo are capable you should be able to shoot a sub MOA group right off the bat. The way to achieve this is in your set up,, front rest, and rear bag. You can also do this with a large sand bag up front and smaller sand sock at the rear. The key is to be able to get the cross hairs on your target and keep the cross hair perfectly still while pulling the trigger straight back, this may take some experamintation to get comfortable and stable,,,and repeat this procedure for a group. Don't even look at where the bullet holes are until you walk up to the target. This practice should be done at 100 yards so that wind variables don't come in to play as much. 1 MOA is nothing to sneeze at,, if there was no wind and you knew your dope you could shoot a 10 inch group at 1000 yards.
A .223 can be every bit as accurate as a .222,, there both good. Just my 2 cents.
Good luck and enjoy the world of accuracy and precision!
There really is an excuse for everything!
Best advice I ever heard, and A LOT of shooters need to be reminded of it quite often.
"To be a good long range shooter, you must first master shooting the short-range."
If you can't shoot consistent small groups at 100 and 200 yards, you're just going to drive yourself nuts trying to do so at longer distances. Shooting is like anything else - you need to progress through stages. I always used to recommend guys start at 50 yards with a 22LR, but with 22LR ammo so scarce these days it's not as feasible as it used to be. After that you would step up to a centerfire rifle cartridge in .224 or 6mm caliber and play with it at 100 and 200 until you can consistently shoot 1/2" or better groups at 200. Then, and only then will you really be ready to move out to longer ranges.
"Life' is tough. It's even tougher if you're stupid." ~ John Wayne
“Under certain circumstances, urgent circumstances, desperate circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.” —Mark Twain
thank you all for the inputs.
Now for your amusement, i present to you my master plan to shoot holes in.
1. buy setup probably a 12 lrpv in 6 br which has the extremely rigid (and probably pretty square) savage target action) rifle with scope mounted should be 13 lbs.
2. DRY FIRE ONLY use snap caps until satisfied with follow through. (trigger breaks extremely close to intended POA, negligible movement before and after trigger pull)
3. break in the barrel and fire some more to get a stable fouling.
4. load development and practice at 100 yards until consistently printing 1/2".
5. if i can get to this point in -500 rounds fired (yeah right ) i will still have about 2000 rounds of accurate barrel life to play with ballistic tables and ding steel at long range.
6. Re barrel to something in 7mm and reach out further.
Sssssomebody stop me..
Good plan but ace the dry firing and just go shoot. Id personaly ace the breakin also.
Dry firing is good practice for position shooting where there is always a certain ammount
of movement. Cordination is much more important than with bench shooting there, especially the offhand position.
The 6 br would be a good choice and will allow for target shooting to 1000 yds when you chose to do so.
Look for reasons to enjoy what your doing other than being the best there is.
I would hit the 1/2 MOA frequently, and even 1/4 MOA occasionally, but I was not consistent until I attended my first LE sniper course. It was a basic course taught by a military sniper instructor. Two weeks of 12 hour days, almost all of it range time, at 100 yards. He hammered on the basics of proper cheek weld, breathing control, trigger control and follow through. I went through about 1600 rounds in that two weeks, all fired prone with a bipod and a small bag under the butt stock.
I don't fish much, but it is very rare that I don't shoot 1/2 MOA any more and frequently, less.
I would also suggest forgetting the barrel break in, it really isn't needed. The dry fire, I tend to agree with the just go shoot train of thought. But, if you really want to do it, it may help with the breath and trigger control.
As already stated, practice, practice, and more practice. And if you can afford the cost, a rifle course is worth the money.
Huntin1
Last edited by huntin1; 05-24-2015 at 10:22 AM.
from what I've heard, 1/2 moa is very far from the best there is.
It might sound like I care only about tightening the group, but I love making every shot. however until they make a way to transmit feelings, we are stuck with discussing tools and tricks of the trade.
The primary reason I am so stuck up on getting to 1/2 is that I want to play the long range game which includes a lot of other variables. So I want to get my skill to the point where I can confidently troubleshoot at long range without doubting my skill.
woah! 2 weeks of 12 hour days! that's like taking your rifle on honeymoon. getting all those skills drilled into you military style seems like a good idea. one would probably waste some money on ammo using improper techniques anyway.
I think your on the correct path to get started on the goal youve set for yourself.
If your serious about long range target shooting, the best shortcut would be to go
visit places where that activity is taken very seriously. At least visit the websites of
the various clubs involved in that. Check out the equiptment list of the winning competetors.
You will start to see patterns as to who'es who among gun builders as well as the winning cartridges etc.
Williamsport has a good site known as (the original 1000 yd benchrest club)
The season has just gotten underway so follow guys like Matt Klien, Frank Weber, Scott weber, Mark King,
to see just how well some of the best shooters do at each match.
Also be prepared to learn that in todays world being a very good shooter might not be enough.
I like dot drills, group shooting drives me nuts and the 5th shot always came with anticipation and ended in failure. 1/2 circles, a bunch of them and shoot them, eventually you will be timing yourself on how fast it takes. Practice makes better, is my best advise.
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