I've completed a load workup for my 308 10FP, and found a good load. I used new FL sized, and prepped brass. I cleaned, deprimed and prepared to prep brass for reloading. Using the Lee neck sizing die, I adjusted down to the point where the neck will grab a 175SMK, and the casing will fall in and out of a Lyman headspace gauge. I had a stuck 223 case in my 12FCV last fall, so I thought I'd see if the empty 308 case would chamber. It wouldn't. I checked most of the empty 308s and they wouldn't chamber. I searched this forum and others concerning this issue. The fixes for fire formed cases that would not chamber ranged from using the neck sizing die properly, to FL sizing a second time. A couple of posters stated that the 2nd FL sizing resulted in a fired case that would chamber in their rifles. I know that an off the shelf rifle may not have a concentric chamber. If this has anything to do with this, how does a 2nd FL sizing fix it? I'm OK with FL sizing if I have to in order to avoid chambering problems at the range. I've also read that shot to shot consistency is better with FL sized brass. Neck sizers don't consistently size the shoulder? I guess this has turned into two questions. I'm interested in understanding why a fire formed case doesn't chamber in the same rifle. I've read the posts on proper use of a Lee collet die. I've followed the mfgr instructions and watched the Youtube videos and seem to be following proper procedure. Is there more to neck sizing than it appears? Should I FL size in order to stay out of trouble?
Don't know about the staying out of trouble part but definitely FLR the cases that will not chamber. As you already know, the Lee Colet die does not change the shoulder or case body dimensions. After a FLR, your cases should not necessarily need that the next time unless you have a real hot load.Should I FL size in order to stay out of trouble?
Last edited by wbm; 04-04-2015 at 03:14 PM.
im not quite understanding whats going on here...so you used new brass that you full length resized then fired it one time and now that same brass will not chamber in your riffle? or its real tight?
It will not chamber. I can advance the bolt foward to just short of where the bolt handle should drop into position. I can't withdraw the bolt without knocking the rifle out of the stand. I have to tap the bolt handle with a rubber mallet. Half the time, I have to tap the case out of the chamber with a wooden dowel. There is no in between. Either it will chamber, or it won't. There was no tight chambering. This is Win brass. When shooting my OCW loads with the Win brass, I included a LC brass load that I know is good. Using it as a comparison. These LC loads were made with neck sized brass. Some of them were real tight, and one I had to tap out with a brass rod while at the range. I didn't fire any more of the LC brass loads. I plan to disassemble them and am thankful that I only have a few.
Look at your brass real close and see if there are any marks on it that shouldn't be there. You may have a rough chamber or a burr.
"And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” John 8:32 (New King James Version)
There was no tight chambering.That is tight chambering.I can advance the bolt foward to just short of where the bolt handle should drop into position.
Has anyone changed your head space or is the rifle like it came from the factory?
With the exception of glass bedding the rifle is factory. I looked at the Win brass. On a lot of the cases there is a scratch extending down the body about 5mm. It starts where the shoulder meets the body. I can't say that I see it on the LC brass. I suppose that the scratch could've been caused by my screwing around chambering and unchambering empty cases. I don't have any brand new Win cases as I've FL sized and trimmed everything I have. I don't know what a pristine case looks like.
without more info it sounds like your die needs to be set down a little more...it sounds like your pushing the body up and not bumping the shoulder back...in simple terms your die is pushing the brass forward(toward the neck)but not hitting the shoulder enough to push it back...try setting your die deeper(down)a 1/4 turn then size a case and chamber it if still tight go down another 1/4 turn and try another case...let us know if this works or not.Originally Posted by MS50
+1 What LongRange said.
Thanks for the feedback. It's supposed to be bad weather most of next week. I hope to get back to work on this soon.
Lets start at the beginning. What exact load are you using like what powder,weight of powder, primer, etc. If you are getting any real stretch in fire forming you pushed the shoulder back too far to begin with. To me it sounds like a super hot load issue.
Willing to give back for what the sport has done for me!
too hot of a load is what it sounds like to me as well. Not being able to chamber once fired brass to me is a dead give away.
Thanks. I used Win brass, CCI#200 primers, 175gr SMK, seated to be .010 off the lands, 44gr Varget. Chronograph results 2710fps. I felt no bolt tightness until I fired loads with 45gr Varget. Groups were low and stayed there starting with 44.2gr Varget. In a previous work up with Win brass I thought I had found a load at 43.6gr Varget. When fired at 300yds, they grouped 6 inches. A three shot group with 44gr Varget at 300 yds grouped at .8 inches. Covered the holes with a nickel. I started at 43.6gr Varget and worked up because I know that the Win brass has 2gr larger internal volume than all the other brass that I measured. My most accurate load with LC brass is 43.2gr Varget. But LC brass has a 2gr smaller internal volume. The speed on that load is 2665. Let me know what you think. Obviously, I can back off on the Varget and try to find another node. I use a shell holder at the range and check each empty case for fit after it's fired. I noticed no difference until I reached 45gr Varget. There was a very slight snugness at that point. Clearly with that info and bolt tightness, 45gr is too much. I always check loaded cartridges with a Lyman head space gauge. If the cartridge doesn't fall in and out, I don't fire it.
Sierra lists 41.7 as max with varget for a 175 in a 308 so your way hot.
Hodgdon shows 45.0 as max load and compressed but i can tell you from experience (24lbs worth) that Varget is not totally predictable from one rifle to the next or one lot to the next. You may have a hot lot or it may be that your chamber is tight and creating pressure problems. I sold my last couple of pounds to a fellow shooter and his 308 loved it. Might try cutting your load back or if you can't get the velocity you want when you cut back then change powder. IMR4064 is a good powder. I myself went to BLC-2. Don't get hung up on the "Varget is the end all powder for the 308" talk that is out there because it is not some super magical powder.
Just my .02 worth.
"And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” John 8:32 (New King James Version)
From what I've read? Your load is a little on the hotter side. You may have a tight chamber as well. If you can,send some factory ammo down the tube and see what gives. if you slow it down some,you'll find another accuracy node at slower speeds. Save your barrel and your shoulder. Judging by the speeds your getting, you must be at lower elevation,
Skip the neck sizing and just full length re-size and see if that fixes it. I had a similar problem and now that I FL resize I have yet to have an issue.
I plan to check the concentricity of the chamber. I'll use the unscientific method of rotating the casing to see if it will chamber at a given position. Some of the cases I tried to rechamber did rechamber. However, I'm not sure what load was fired from a given case because I combined the cases to clean them. I will also consider the MV issue. I'm not using a compressed load at 44gr Varget. Not sure if 2700 is too fast, but the results were good. It's the only load I've found that will perform well at 100 and 300 yards. I was shooting for about 2650fps as that's the avg speed that I've been able to find for match ammunition such as Corbon. BTW I'm at 1250ft elevation. I will also FL resize once I've checked the cases in the chamber and reload a few. I will test fire them again to see what happens. I'll pay particular attention to bolt lift, recoil, and other signs of over pressure. Other than not being able to rechamber the fire formed brass, I saw no visual signs of over pressure on the brass. Thanks for the help.
To the OP, no--neck sizing does not set the shoulder back. A FL sizing die is required to do this. As far as lack of neck concentricity in the chamber of your rifle, I can't comment on that, as I don't know. The only way a second FL resizing fixes your issue; is when the FIRST FL resizing was improperly done. I resolved a very similar problem.
New, factory ammo was fired and neck sized with an RCBS Neck Size 2 die set. After the second shooting, I neck sized again, and to my surprise, some of the empties were tough to chamber. The shoulder had expanded to the point where it didn't spring back after firing, and headspace was getting tight. We know it's a necessity to have to FL resize after a few neck sizings. The shoulder has to be bumped back to fit the chamber. I didn't expect to have to FL resize after only 2 firings (53 gr of 4350, minimum load with the 130 gr. bullet), but whatever. BTW, this is brass used on only one bolt action rifle. Mine.
I purchased a Herters full length resizing die, and ran all the twice-fired, tough to chamber brass through it. To set up the die; I raised the ram to the top of the stroke, screwed the FL die to touch the shell holder, and tightened the die's lock nut. I decided against the extra 1/4 turn. After resizing thusly, the bolt wouldn't close on the empty cases. It felt just like trying to chamber a no go gauge. I backed away from the reloading bench and gave it a week's thought (while I waited for my Redding 3 die set to arrive). Like the OP, I researched plenty. I looked for my problem on many forums, and like the OP, found feedback that ranged from FL resizing again, to "you didn't use the FL resizing die right." Much of the advice seemed like guesses at best, and some of it was just plain bad, wrong, or useless. One post read, "You over resized." Gotta love the internet. If there's a way to "over resize" with a FL die, (notwithstanding crushing the brass) it must take a great deal of talent and experience.
After having resolved my issue, I think I know what the problem was. Shame on me for "cheaping out," and buying a Herters FL die for $13 on eBay. I was not familiar with the need for a special shell holder and the Herters name. After just touching the shellholder, then even afterwards trying the 1/4 turn additional after touching the shellholder, the brass was hosed. I was confused as hell, and questioned everything from headspacing to user stupidity. After a hard look at the cases, I saw that the brass was deformed or bulged at the neck/shoulder, or shoulder/body junction. I was going too far into the die. This problem, I learned, is avoidable by using the Herters shellholder.
So I cried twice after doing what my initial plan was before I attempted to save money. I should have just bought the Redding 3 die set and had done with it. I ran the bulged-at-the-shoulder pieces of brass through the Redding FL die, and voila. Problem solved.
My problem? Wrong die, or improper use of the die I had.
FWIW, to my knowledge, going too hot can be remedied by simply FL resizing (as long as it's done properly), and as long as the brass isn't rendered dangerous to use by the overload. If an empty doesn't chamber after a FL resize, something about your rifle has changed (headspace), your technique is flawed, or you don't have enough familiarity with the equipment you're using. Be consistent with the lube, don't over-lube, use your calipers consistently, know your equipment; and by god--if you use a Herters die, use the right shellholder!
Last edited by SparkyLB; 04-06-2015 at 06:31 AM. Reason: never right the first post.
All good info. I will work on this. Per one posters advice, I will also fire a few factory loads to see if they'll rechamber. I'm pretty sure I followed procedure using my RCBS FL sizing die. All of my gear is RCBS. My neck sizer is Lee. Are you saying that my neck sizing problems could be caused by using a RCBS shell holder with the Lee sizer? My neck sized cases drop into and out of a Lyman head space gauge easily, yet the casing won't chamber. Are you saying the Lee die and Lyman head space gauge are incompatible? I thought head space gauges were designed to prepare casings to fit in all factory chambers. I don't have a custom chamber. Thanks again. I've got some work to do. Hope to get this resolved so that I can reload and get on with the shooting.
Range report: Fired Ultramax 168gr LC brass remanufactured, and HSM 168gr Federal brass ammunition in my 10FP. Neither would rechamber after I fired them. I marked the case with magic marker to rechamber the fire formed case in the same position. No go. Looks like I'll have to FL resize my fire formed 308 cases. My 12FCV is tight as well. I've started FL sizing the LC, Rem, and Win brass for the .223 last year. I have successfully neck sized fireformed 223 cases for my Mod11. The cases will rechamber in the Mod11 with no problem. I would like to be able to neck size the 308 brass to extend case life. If I can't, I can't. Thanks for the feedback from all posters. This has been a great learning experience.
No. A Herters FL resizing die is a special animal. So far as I know it's the only die that requires a shellholder that is made for it. Otherwise, cross utilization of shell holders and dies shouldn't be a problem.
I tried neck sizing only and found no accuracy benefit for it. As a matter of fact it just created more work for me, keeping track of what was fl sized and what was neck sized.
Now I full length size everything, everytime.
I FL sized a bunch of fire formed 308 this evening. 100% fit in the headspace gauge, and everything I tried chambered after sizing. It's still a mystery to me why cases that will fit a headspace gauge won't chamber. It's a good thing I tried to chamber an empty before loading a couple of hundred cases. It would've been a long miserable bullet removal session. Thanks to everyone for the feedback.
Chamber issues. I've had issues with chambers before that couldn't be seen with the naked eye, took a bore Scope to spot it. Little bit of lapping compound and polishing to rid myself of debris that I spotted in the chamber. Micing the spent case would help as well. c king head space won't hurt either.
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