MODS if this in the wrong area, I'm sorry, I didn't know where to post it.
So, some of you know that I'm a police sniper in west Texas down here and the guys on the sniper element ran into a few problems yesterday training in the rain and I wanted to ask for some input because frankly, where I live, it doesn't rain much so we don't get this opportunity very often. I was not present during this training session as I was working on some stuff for a warrant service.
Yesterday, the guys were shooting under some canopies but during a constant heavy rain in windy conditions and were firing several strings of fire. The conditions described to me is that due to the wind, the rifles were in fact getting wet as well as possibly the ammunition which is 168gr FGMM SMK from a current lot where we haven't experience any problems prior to yesterday. After several strings of fire, 3 out of 6 guys started experiencing heavy bolt lift and difficult extraction of spent casings.
My questions since I wasn't there were: Did unfired cases provide the same problems? Did the spent casings show signs of problems? Neither of which could be answered for me.
All rifles were Robar built Remington 700s on Surgeon actions in 308. My thoughts were that moisture build up on the cases/chamber led to uneven expansion causing the problems experienced but since I cannot verify this by looking at the shell casings, I can't positively identify the problems. What do you guys think? Am I on the right track? I have a newer Sgt who now believes that our rifles won't work in the rain.
Respectfully,
Matt
I dont have an answer for your question, other than maybe try different ammo.
Certainly in your business shooting in the rain can be a reality.
But i have a question of my own for you.
How do you guys go about shooting?
Im guessing now when i say id think (macho) plays no roll when its time for serious business.
That said id also think shooting rests of some type are employed?
Are you familiar with the Lone Star rest and is that product used?
Yeah, it's pretty structured serious shooting and shooting in the rain could be a reality. All the strings were 1-8 rounds with time to cool in between for several strings. All the shots were prone off either Harris or versa pod bipods with rear bags.
Sounds like you and your team just need to plan a road trip to the Pacific Northwest. After three or four days you'd be very experienced in shooting in the rain.
Originally Posted by keeki
Guess it doesn't really matter. If ya cant afford $15, you won't be buying much anyways
Ha! I doubt that would get approved!
I've shot in the rain, snow, sand, "moon dust" mud and just about any other type of terrain you can name. When it rains you will see heavy bolt lift if the lubrication is washed from your rifle and the tight specs of those surgeon rifles will highlight it even further. Just need to do your best to keep gear as dry as possible and get a good bolt grease for the wetter conditions. I sometimes use a heavy sticky grease and thin it out with a light oil to get a combination that really sticks to the bolt while not creating too much mess.
Surgeon actions are very precisely made and have very tight tolerances. Gotta understand that when you get dirt, dust, water or anything in the mix it will not operate the way it does in preferred conditions. Same with all gear through.
+1 What Lone Wolf said is dead on.
I was able to track down some of the shell casings and 8 out of the 10 showed signs of high pressure. I can't attach pics on the tapatalk app or I would. Thanks for the help gents.
If you have an excessive amount of water in the chamber area than it can definitely cause pressure signs.
I've dented the shoulders on cases running them through a sizing die with too much lube before.
So imagine an explosion in a tight chamber with drops of water restricting the natural expansion of the case.
There are two factors that cause problems in the rain. One is wet ammo. It causes hydraulic and bolt thrust issues. Second is moisture in the barrel. You effectively increase your bullets mass as it encounters water as it travels down the bore. You're probably shooting 168 gr amax match. With water in the bore, you now have load meant for a 168 and you're pushing 180ish grs of bullet. #1 mimics hot loads and is hard on the gun. #2 is a hot load. There are ways to keep it from happening.
this is exactly right....also as lonewolf said...ive shot in just about every weather condition there is from a 105* to -8* and everything in between. its moisture in the barrel causing the problem more so than the action...ive never shot a high end action but know a few guys that do and when they get dirty they dont cycle smoothly so i can imagine when they get wet its even worse. ive also been told by a few ppl that shooting in wet conditions is hard on barrels as the pressure and the bullet can do the same thing to the barrel as to much sizing wax does to a case when sizing just on a much smaller scale.Originally Posted by Alleycat72
What's this canopy you speak of? One of the advanced sniper courses I attended we had rain most of the week. Imagine doing 500-1000 yard low crawl stalks through knee high CRP, wearing a full ghillie, in the rain. It was fun and sucked at the same time.
As stated already wet ammo and/or water in the bore will produce the effects you described. The only thing you can do is keep everything as dry as possible, or shoot only when it is nice out.
Huntin1
There's like a shade canopy at the range. What is this CRP you speak of? Ha! Our stalks are through cactus and mesquite. Shooting just when conditions are optimal isn't really an option as you well know, we just don't get a lot of training time in the rain which is why we took advantage of it.
I appreciate the insight and information from everyone though. Thanks again gents.
Matt
Hadn't thought of the cactus, I'll take wet CRP, at least everything won't stab me. :)
Balloons?
What I find interesting here is 168gr FGMM SMK seems like a fairly moderate load. At least from our 308 Axis's.
Glad the temps in the fall here balance things out. Kids practice load is a FGMM clone. But hunting loads a bit warmer.
I carry a bag of small water balloons in my pack, they do come in handy when it rains. Still have to protect the action and the ammo, but don't have to worry about water running down the bore. I started doing this years ago with my muzzleloaders, but it works well with any rifle.
Huntin1
You don't think they handed out condoms to the troops to practice safe sex when overseas do ya?
"Life' is tough. It's even tougher if you're stupid." ~ John Wayne
“Under certain circumstances, urgent circumstances, desperate circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.” —Mark Twain
^^^^ It's not pretty lol, but it works!
Makes me remember my days in Vietnam during the monsoon season. NOTHING remained dry in that gawd awful weather. We medics had finger cots which were nothing more than mini condoms that could be put over dressings on fingers to keep them dry and clean. They worked better than condoms as the fit over the flash hider tighter and wouldn't be pulled off by rubbing against brush or vines.You don't think they handed out condoms to the troops to practice safe sex when overseas do ya?
This.
http://www.americanscreeningcorp.com...JqYhoC3Pnw_wcB
And an old camouflage rain jacket over the scope and action. If you get water between the action and the bedding your going to have fun.
When I went through the scout sniper course at Camp Lejeune, we put electrical tape over the muzzle to keep water out when crawling through dew wet grass and in the rain.What's this canopy you speak of? One of the advanced sniper courses I attended we had rain most of the week. Imagine doing 500-1000 yard low crawl stalks through knee high CRP, wearing a full ghillie, in the rain. It was fun and sucked at the same time.
As stated already wet ammo and/or water in the bore will produce the effects you described. The only thing you can do is keep everything as dry as possible, or shoot only when it is nice out.
Huntin1
Yeah, we tried the electrical tape, wouldn't stay put. Small water balloons seemed to work the best. I've seen those finger cots you spoke of, they might work better than the water balloons.
Back in 1990 I had a slot reserved for the LE version of the scout sniper course at Camp Legeune, Carlos Hathcock was still an instructor then. I was really looking forward to attending that course and meeting him. If I recall the class was scheduled in late August or early September, then The Gulf War happened and the class got canceled. Carlos is one of my heros, I really would have liked to have met him.
Huntin1
His Spotter and Gunsmith is still out here in Southern California!
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