Any HVAC / Plumbing heating guys on here?

**EFBell** · 03-07-2015, 02:25 PM

Any heating Gurus on board? Here is a question for you.
I have a natural gas boiler. It also makes my domestic hot water but it is pretty much tankless.
10 years ago I got a free almost new 20 gallon 110 volt water heater from a job site. I hooked it up as an "economizer" and fed it into my domestic water going to the boiler. I think it certainly helped the boiler to produce hot water more efficiently. Well, at this time it's life cycle is over. The tank rusted through and it's leaking all over the floor in the basement.

Questions:
Was I really saving any money by doing this? Or am I kidding myself? At the time Natural gas was pretty costly ans compared to now.
Would it be wise to invest in another similar (about 300 bucks) heater and replace it?
Is there a better option?

Thanks

Ed B.

**gbflyer** · 03-07-2015, 03:46 PM

Not a pro but a DIY out of pure necessity.

I would replace the tank. A domestic coil hot water supply can be very hot as it runs the same temp as your boiler unless you have a cold water tempering valve. Your system is the right way to go in my opinion. With the additional storage, the domestic hot water demand doesn't call up the boiler and should save you some fuel.

**yobuck** · 03-07-2015, 03:50 PM

Sounds like you have a hot water baseboard type heating system utilizing a gas fired boiler.
It would also be known as a summer/winter system in that you utilize the same boiler for
your domestic hot water during the non heating months. The same system could also utilize
an oil fired boiler. Other than being the best type system for heating in your part of the world
it also supplies your domestic hot water pretty much free during the heating season.
So yes you were kidding yourself by having the electric water heater.
I would simply cut the lines from the old electric water heater and add valves for shutoffs in the
event you ever decide to change your mind.

**EFBell** · 03-07-2015, 04:26 PM

Already have bypass valves in place, having done a lot of industrial piping in my day I know all about maintenance valves lol... anyway, They are shut off now. And yes I do have baseboard heat. I had a plumber friend years ago explain to me that its a good way to go to keep the water warm going into the boiler feed for domestic water. less work for the boiler especially in the summer. What the heck, the unit was free.

**kkeene** · 03-07-2015, 06:41 PM

If the boiler is in good shape and functioning properly I would eliminate the electric tank.
Keith

**EFBell** · 03-07-2015, 07:08 PM

Boiler is fine. thankfully... i installed a new gun about 5 years ago and it's been trouble free. I do already notice the boiler kicking in more frequently though when hot water is needed.

**yobuck** · 03-07-2015, 08:28 PM

Originally Posted by EFBell

Boiler is fine. thankfully... i installed a new gun about 5 years ago and it's been trouble free. I do already notice the boiler kicking in more frequently though when hot water is needed.

Well it was kicking in before also but with electric via the electric water heater.
Now your system is functioning the way it was designed to work.

**kkeene** · 03-07-2015, 11:11 PM

Be interesting to look at your electric and gas bills before / after you remove the electric tank. My guess is your electric bill will be $8 to $10 less if the weather is about the same.

**EFBell** · 03-08-2015, 03:45 AM

Yes it stands to reason my electric bill will go down. And my gas bill will go up. I don't watch them close enough to tell. And with the winter we had here this year both utilities are through the roof.

**rjtfroggy** · 03-08-2015, 07:41 AM

EFBELL in my younger days I was a licensed oil burner tech and to make a very long answer short yes it is worth PRE-HEATING your water. Much easier to make water hot enough for bathing from say a temp of 100* than it is from 50* plus your boiler only has at most a 4-5 gallon coil where as the water tank adds another 20 gallons.
I have a Phase 3 on my own (36gal. ) but that requires another zone, but in 36 years I have never run out of hot water and that is with 4 females in the house.

**243LPR** · 03-08-2015, 08:24 AM

Gas is a lot cheaper than electric right now. If the domestic coil can keep up with the demand I'd say ditch the tank.Sounds like this was an oil boiler converted to gas,right.Eventually the coil will need to be cleaned depending on your water quality.

**Stockrex** · 03-08-2015, 01:34 PM

Ed, you will be better off without it.
It would only make sense if your electric rates are quite low.
When I lived in MO, in the fine city where Jesse James robbed his first bank. The electric rates went down if you used more. Over 1200 units, I think the rate was 6 cents a unit. Nat Gas was pretty expensive back then.
Now, in the fine state of MI (where we have Nuclear), my unit rates actually go up as I use more (doh?), and per unit of energy, electric costs 3x more than nat gas here in MI.

I actually use one of those electric heaters, it is a 2 gallons in my mothers bath, as she does not like waiting for the hot water. It is inline with the faucet.

**EFBell** · 03-08-2015, 04:12 PM

yeah, financially conditions are not the same as they were when I installed it. As far as making it easier on the boiler??? who knows. Some say definitely helps, others not so much... I got hold of my old plumber friend this morning and he feels it is a good thing still to help the boiler work less. I don't know, since I had the foresight to put bypass valves around it it's a non issue right now. I cut it loose and disconnected the electric to it. Maybe when conditions change it may make sense to replace it.

**Stockrex** · 03-09-2015, 04:24 PM

Originally Posted by EFBell

yeah, financially conditions are not the same as they were when I installed it. As far as making it easier on the boiler??? who knows. Some say definitely helps, others not so much... I got hold of my old plumber friend this morning and he feels it is a good thing still to help the boiler work less. I don't know, since I had the foresight to put bypass valves around it it's a non issue right now. I cut it loose and disconnected the electric to it. Maybe when conditions change it may make sense to replace it.

Ed, could you please post the year/make/model of your boiler.
I have a buddy who owns an hvac business, I will run it by him.
Thanks,

**EFBell** · 03-09-2015, 07:23 PM

ok, here is what we have:
New Yorker Boiler
Model # is FRG122
Net output: 106,100 BTU
DOE heating cap: 122,000
Firing Rate: 154,000

No date on tag. I'm guessing early to mid 90's??? I bought the house in 99 and it looked to have a few years on it least when I moved in.

**Stockrex** · 03-10-2015, 07:27 PM

Ed, got it,
Reconfirming, the boiler is nat gas fired, correct?
Thanks,

**EFBell** · 03-10-2015, 07:50 PM

yes it is Nat Gas. Thanks

**langenc** · 03-11-2015, 10:04 PM

Originally Posted by EFBell

Already have bypass valves in place, having done a lot of industrial piping in my day I know all about maintenance valves lol... anyway, They are shut off now. And yes I do have baseboard heat. I had a plumber friend years ago explain to me that its a good way to go to keep the water warm going into the boiler feed for domestic water. less work for the boiler especially in the summer. What the heck, the unit was free.

The unit may have been free but what ran it wasn't. I suspect that electricity is more costly than gas..

I do the same thing w/ boiler and boiler mate'. Only way to go.

**EFBell** · 03-12-2015, 06:47 PM

Originally Posted by langenc

The unit may have been free but what ran it wasn't. I suspect that electricity is more costly than gas..

I do the same thing w/ boiler and boiler mate'. Only way to go.

Yes, those are sweet units. I like the idea but it's a big chunk of money. I'm sure the payback would be worth it though.

**Stockrex** · 03-14-2015, 10:53 AM

Rog was not quite sure how you are setup but here what he had to say:
1. Gas boilers do not need a storage tank, the liquid mass in your system is adequate to prevent short cycling. A storage tank is added to add mass to the system to prevent short cycling.
2. Water heaters have sacrificial anodes which need to be replaced every 3 to 5 years, else the tank starts to corrode and leak.

So you are good, the boiler will work fine as it is, just clean the burners, purge the system as recommended. Hope that helps

**EFBell** · 03-14-2015, 06:20 PM

Rex, what I was doing was preheating the water going into the domestic water coil. Not storing hot water coming out. The theory was that it provides warmer water going in and requires less work on the part of the boiler also making it easier for the boiler to keep up when demand is higher. obviously it is only in relation to the quantity of water available from the water heater acting as a preheater. I have a deep well and my water comes out quite cold. my boiler is a tankless domestic water heater. The base board heat water is a separate circuit entirely.

**Stockrex** · 04-03-2015, 08:32 AM

Sorry for the delay, I saw Roger at our club meeting last night.
Ed, I am sorry, I misread your post, Roger thought it was domestic water heater too initially.
Lol,
Anyway, the verdict, you don't need the electric preheater, just use the New York by itself to heat your water, you will save money.
He pointed out that just keeping up with the preventative maintenance will yield many years of use.

**yobuck** · 04-03-2015, 09:06 AM

Not sure about now, but at one time New Yorker boilers were made at a place on rt 309 in Colmar PA.
We used lots of them in the houses we built in that area.

**EFBell** · 04-03-2015, 01:18 PM

Originally Posted by yobuck

Not sure about now, but at one time New Yorker boilers were made at a place on rt 309 in Colmar PA.
We used lots of them in the houses we built in that area.

Yes they were. I knew several welders over the years that put some time in there. They still have a Hatfield PA address but I dont know where there at now. As far as I know that place has been vacant for years.

**EFBell** · 04-03-2015, 01:21 PM

Originally Posted by Stockrex

Sorry for the delay, I saw Roger at our club meeting last night.
Ed, I am sorry, I misread your post, Roger thought it was domestic water heater too initially.
Lol,
Anyway, the verdict, you don't need the electric preheater, just use the New York by itself to heat your water, you will save money.
He pointed out that just keeping up with the preventative maintenance will yield many years of use.

Thanks, thats what I'm going to do for now. When you see him next ask him about the "Boiler Mate" system. That is a tank system with a coil inside that gets heated by boiler water. It looks interesting but I dont much about them.

Thanks