Having trouble with new long range .308 build.

[lrshooting]

First and foremost, I am excited to have finally make an account here. I am on THR and some archery sites, I just never got around to being here on SS which is a great forum. I was a "read only" member for a long time.

Now thats out of the way...moving on. I have a savage M11 .308 I am finally turning into a much more beastly machine than it is now. Its currently got the accutrigger, reciever, and bolt. Other than that, everything is getting changed. I am planning on a PTG or CDI DBM with 5 rnd AICS mags. I dont need 10 round mags unless I am running deer on our farm. Even then, its rare I shoot that much that quickly. Last time was probably 6-7 years ago, and thats because I kept missing!

Anyways, to go with the DBM and barrel, I plan on a boyd stock that I will modify heavily in stiffening the fore end, adding pillars, and glass bedding the action and lug. Also will free float the barrel and add adjustable comb. I like to be involved in my projects. I have a Vortex Viper PST 4-16x50 Mrad located for 850$ from my local dealer. I found used cheaper, but I dont trust ebay most of the time and it wasn't Mrad. Ill top the gun off with this and a steel 20 moa base and good rings.

However, I am having trouble deciding on a barrel. I have two options right now 1) Criterion and 2) Shilen. I am leaning towards Shilen because of reputability, but after chosing barrel make, I still have to chose length and contour. Jim Briggs only carries the 28 inch bull barrel right now and that is just too long for me. I think 26 is a good number for long range, but I have no expirence in the matter. I am a "book" gun smith in most areas like that. Contour is worrying me to. At 26 inches, shilen varmit barrels are recessed crowned and .8 inches at the muzzle, while bulls are 11 degree crowned and 1 inch at muzzle. Seems to me that shilen doesn't expect anybody but target shooters to buy the bull barrel...So my question is what do you all suggest for long range accuracy (+800 yards) on paper, but not completely cumbersome for shorter ranges at deer. I dont mind a heavy rifle, but I hesitate to stick that much stress on the action. Coupled with the fact that my deer hunting can often be very long. I have over a 1000 acres to walk or sit so anything over 20 pounds with sling, bipod, and everything attached is going to be a little too much. Im young, but not quite that ambitious. Until I decide if I will enlist for sure or not, Im not worried about if I can carry a 20+ lb tactical rifle. Maybe its not possible and I am being naive about weights, but if it is over 20 lbs, oh well. If it makes a difference, I wont be shooting large volumes of ammo at any one point in time like competitions may require. Im open to any suggestions!

If I am in the wrong forum, please move me! :) I often end up in the wrong forums until I get use to the set up. My apologies in advance.

[missed]

I'm running a 26" fluted bull and shooting to 1000 yards. It is a varmint weight with an 11 degree crown. If I have to do anything to that barrel I'm going to go to a recessed crown as I prefer them in anything that I run around with. I have had good luck with both those barrel manufacturers. Although all my recent barrels have been McGowen and Brux.

If I had to have one barrel I would go with the 26" varmint weight as a 28" bull is going to be a heavy slow moving and probably won't balance shooting off hand. I usually spin my 16" barrel on when I go to the field. I can still ring the 1000 yard gong with 185 grain hybrids.

[huntin1]

I would agree with missed. I much prefer the recessed crown, particularly on a rifle that will be used for hunting. I would go with the 26" varmint contour. My 10FP still has the factory 24" barrel and I do ok out to 1000 with that, but am going to go with a 26" when I replace it.

As far as brand, I am having the same issue, can't decide between the two you mentioned.

Huntin1

[Boudin]

Varmint is a good compromise. It's heavy enough without being too unwieldy. You should be able to put a rig together in the 12-13 pound range with the lam stock. I'm planning a similar build in 7mm rem mag and I'm leaning toward a varmint with flutes to knock off some weight. Either of those brands are can't miss. You will hit a home run either way. Pick the one that's the better deal.

[gbflyer]

New guy to the forum here too!

My opinion...as it seems you are a hunter...don't settle for what you don't really want. Those barrel makers will make you any contour you want, you just might have to wait. If not get ahold of Jay at PacNor and he will hook you up in 6-8 weeks. I wouldn't go any heavier than light varmint for a LR walking/hunting rig in .308. Hunting is not sustained fire like competition so heating one up isn't a concern. Also, 22" is plenty long, I prefer 20" myself. Shorter means stiffer which translates into better accuracy potential. Loss of velocity is minimal regardless of a lot of things printed on the subject. Also, the detachable mag is cool, but makes a heavier rig and man it is an expensive add -on. Ounces matter when you're walking. Anything over 9 lbs is a club in the woods.

Most of all have fun with it! Neat to build up your own project but watch out, because one is not enough. :D

[D.ID]

My wife runs a 26" bull in a stock that weighs almost twice what a boyds weighs, one of the heaviest scopes out there and even with bipod, sling, brake and ammo is right around 16#.
Varmint profile is a nice compromise. I usually will not run a barrel over 24", just not worth making it barrel heavy in the field.
.
Do not settle for what they have on the shelf. You can get a shilen blank off midway and send it to apache gun works, get it your way allot faster than than from shilen.
My best barrel was done this way and is benchrest competition quality despite being a large magnum it shoots in the low 0.1" realm.

[Newsshooter]

If you're going to swap barrels I'd suggest looking at the 6.5 creedmoor too. Much better ballistics than the .308, gets to 1K with less elevation, better in the wind as well. I'm shooting a Savage LRP with a 26 factory barrel using factory ammo and a 100 yard zero I need 8.3 mils to 1K.

[D.ID]

If you're going to swap barrels I'd suggest looking at the 6.5 creedmoor too. Much better ballistics than the .308, gets to 1K with less elevation, better in the wind as well. I'm shooting a Savage LRP with a 26 factory barrel using factory ammo and a 100 yard zero I need 8.3 mils to 1K.

+1!................slightly less recoil also.

[Robinhood]

Big long heavy barrels are for match shooting or multiple follow up shots in the prone position. If this is not you then don't build a rifle for that. If you are just going to shoot long range and want a good all purpose tool there are a couple of guys on here that I would follow their advice.

Guys like yobuck and a slew of other guys mostly on here mostly from the western and north western states can help you out. If you want to shoot paper from a bench or prone and blow the x ring out that is a different philosophy and quite a few guys will help you build a quality gun for that. In some ways those two overlap but that is when compromise begins. I personally like the 308 but it is a compromise of all compromises. It does many things OK. From the 6mm to 7mm and everything in between is an improvement from a ballistics standpoint. There are several good options for the guy who doesn't roll his own.

You have taken time to define your wants. "Beastly machine" and "rarely shoot that much that quickly" comments make me think that you are still up in the air about what you want. Heck you might get another rifle that is already close to what you're after(for the same money) and leave that one alone. Stock, barrel, high end mag! You could have two rifles for jut a little bit more than the mods to have just one. Just a thought. decide what it is exactly that your going to do and you will get a lot of help spending your money. Just remember some stuff is bling for you. Some is strictly business.

[gbflyer]

Turning a blank and coming out with a good product can be risky. If the smith does it extremely slowly, as in stop when it begins to warm up a little and waits until cool to start again success is sure. Very, very slow to do. I would recommend a pre-contoured pipe that the manufacturer has properly stress - relieved after contouring and/or fluting. Might as well remove that variable on you quest for the ragged hole. Of course there are many success stories to the contrary, your individual mileage may vary.

[GaCop]

+1!................slightly less recoil also.

+2!

[GaCop]

You may also want to consider a heavy sporter weight barrel at about 24 inches. That would make a nice walk around rifle.

[lrshooting]

Great suggestions guys. Thanks!

Only reason I wont switch to something like a 6.5 creedmor is availability and the fact that I already have the reloading equipment. I can get a lot of LC brass for .308 dirt cheap. I separate them out by brand and get good results.

I apologize if I seem like I dont know what I want, but I think the real problem is I want everything I want in one gun...Im asking too much. Honestly, I could deal with more weight before i let go of performance. It seems like a 22-26 inch barrel that is a varmit contour would be best suited for my needs. 1:10 twist seems standard among most of these rifles and offers a lot of flexibility in weight.

Robinhoods comment got me thinking as well, but I dont have money to spend on bling and I feel I am buying what I think will collaborate into a better gun overall that I will like. I would be happy with one gun I really like more than several guns that were just kind of cool. Its an addiction to see the best I can do... :) I dont necessarily need a AI mag, but I can get a fairly unexpensive DBM for it and i never need more than one mag either as of now. Sometimes I wish I did have two, but 1 works fine. However, I do want a detachable mag regardless. I have internals and Im not a fan.

Ill continue to do more research and take these suggestions into consideration. It may be worth it too look into the creedmoor. I would still have the .308 stuff, but could switch to the 6.5 for paper punching. Just an idea.

[Newsshooter]

I think the varmint contour would be good, you'll get a little more velocity with a longer barrel. As someone else posted there are always compromises. If you're going to shoot 1K, 155's pushed fast or 175's seem to do the trick. 168's can have issues with tumbling past 800.

[earl39]

Staying with the .308 unless you are also going to use the rifle to compete with i would go with light varmite and 24-26 inch barrel. If you are going to shoot in matches at long range then a varmite or bull barrel at least 26 inches long as velocity is your friend with a 308 when you reach out to 800 plus yards.

[Bigeclipse]

Honestly the criterion aren't a bad barrel and they offer a light varmint contour which is plenty heavy for accuracy but light enough to carry. I have a 24inch 7mm rem mag it is reaching 3050fps with 160 accubonds. Plenty of speed to punch paper out to 1000 and hunt deer out to 700. It regularly prints less than half MOA unless I pull a shot. This has been varied out to 500 yards so far.

I would not use a bull or even a regular varmint if I was walking over a quarter mile in hill country. Just too dang heavy and uncomfortable.

[lrshooting]

They sound reputable. The only issue I have with them is their track record. I guess I am one of those people who are very adverse to risk of buying a lesser barrel. Although it seems everybody that has one likes it...I would like to see a side by side comparison using the same setups off a sled. Ammo would need to be tested and loaded so that each barrel gets the round it likes most because I see people shooting factory ammo out of two different barrels and say one is better than the other when I for a fact know that the "lesser" barrel is capable of much more than the test indicates with proper loads.

Ill talk to Mr. Briggs and see what he thinks. I wouldn't mind the criterion especially with the cost difference compared to difference in performance. Some people say they are cleaner in the rifling too and are owned by Krieger which would likely keep that part of the company at least up to good standards (Speculating here).

[barrel-nut]

Although they were originally owned by Krieger, I believe they are now an independent company. That's not to imply that there's any problem with them, though. I have a couple of Criterions and love them both. Very high quality, super smooth finish inside and out.

[Bigeclipse]

They sound reputable. The only issue I have with them is their track record. I guess I am one of those people who are very adverse to risk of buying a lesser barrel. Although it seems everybody that has one likes it...I would like to see a side by side comparison using the same setups off a sled. Ammo would need to be tested and loaded so that each barrel gets the round it likes most because I see people shooting factory ammo out of two different barrels and say one is better than the other when I for a fact know that the "lesser" barrel is capable of much more than the test indicates with proper loads.

Ill talk to Mr. Briggs and see what he thinks. I wouldn't mind the criterion especially with the cost difference compared to difference in performance. Some people say they are cleaner in the rifling too and are owned by Krieger which would likely keep that part of the company at least up to good standards (Speculating here).

Also note I did buy the criterion "match grade" barrel. It was 330 dollars. The two reasons I went that way is they offer a light varmint contour and they had one in stock. If you are not in a rush and don't mind waiting 6 months...order a full custom shilen in the contour you want. I believe they take orders instead of ordering one of their cookie cutter savage prefits. Price will be close to the same...unless you order extras like fluting or brake instalation it's just they won't get it to you for a good amount of time.

[Ranger412]

I cannot comment on barrel choices. I run a factory 26" .308 varmint taper barrel on my rig. I'm sure I could probably take it from a 1/2 MOA rifle to a 1/4 MOA rifle with a good barrel, but I'm happy where I'm at now in that regard.

My rifle came with the factory Tupperware stock that I quickly swapped out for a Bell & Carlson Tactical Medalist. I liked the B&C but wanted a bit more. I ended up hacking on it; adding a raised cheek piece, shaving off the front "wings", and texturing the grip areas. With skim bedding it was shooting lights out . . . but I wanted a detachable magazine! After adding up the cost of the stock, the mods I did to it, and the cost of detachable bottom metal hardware, I discovered that I was in the same ballpark of an entry-level chassis system. I ended up selling off my B&C and bought a McRee's chassis. The modularity of the chassis and the ability to accept AI magazines make it money well spent.

Along that same line, we recently built up a Savage rifle in .223 for my son to shoot in the matches. I bought a Boyd's Tacticool for it, pillared and bedded it, and again added my raised cheek piece mod. I ordered the factory bottom metal direct from Savage to convert it over to the detachable magazine set-up. Although the cost of the stock, mods, and bottom metal don't quite get to the same dollar figure as what I would have done to the B&C to add bottom metal.

Take a look:

Bell & Carlson = $250
Detachable Bottom Metal (from one of the reputable aftermarket makers) = @ $250
Mods to make the stock more usable = @ $50

Total = $550

Boyds Tacticool = $100
Detachable Bottom Metal (from one of the reputable aftermarket makers) = @ $250 / Savage Factory DBM = @ $100
Stock Mods (Raised Cheek Piece / bedding / pillars - all DIY) = $50

Total = either $250 with the Savage factory DBM or $400 with the aftermarket DBM

I think that, going through the work I've done to make either of the stocks more shootable/accurate, I can see how going with the chassis set-up from the get go is money well spent. I do like tinkering and messing with DIY, but I've finally realized the benefits of a chassis. I was happy to see that an un-bedded chassis (you can skim bed if you're not happy with the accuracy out of the box) didn't negatively affect the accuracy of my .308. Still a 1/2 MOA rifle if I do my part.

[lrshooting]

I cannot comment on barrel choices. I run a factory 26" .308 varmint taper barrel on my rig. I'm sure I could probably take it from a 1/2 MOA rifle to a 1/4 MOA rifle with a good barrel, but I'm happy where I'm at now in that regard.

My rifle came with the factory Tupperware stock that I quickly swapped out for a Bell & Carlson Tactical Medalist. I liked the B&C but wanted a bit more. I ended up hacking on it; adding a raised cheek piece, shaving off the front "wings", and texturing the grip areas. With skim bedding it was shooting lights out . . . but I wanted a detachable magazine! After adding up the cost of the stock, the mods I did to it, and the cost of detachable bottom metal hardware, I discovered that I was in the same ballpark of an entry-level chassis system. I ended up selling off my B&C and bought a McRee's chassis. The modularity of the chassis and the ability to accept AI magazines make it money well spent.

Along that same line, we recently built up a Savage rifle in .223 for my son to shoot in the matches. I bought a Boyd's Tacticool for it, pillared and bedded it, and again added my raised cheek piece mod. I ordered the factory bottom metal direct from Savage to convert it over to the detachable magazine set-up. Although the cost of the stock, mods, and bottom metal don't quite get to the same dollar figure as what I would have done to the B&C to add bottom metal.

Take a look:

Bell & Carlson = $250
Detachable Bottom Metal (from one of the reputable aftermarket makers) = @ $250
Mods to make the stock more usable = @ $50

Total = $550

Boyds Tacticool = $100
Detachable Bottom Metal (from one of the reputable aftermarket makers) = @ $250 / Savage Factory DBM = @ $100
Stock Mods (Raised Cheek Piece / bedding / pillars - all DIY) = $50

Total = either $250 with the Savage factory DBM or $400 with the aftermarket DBM

I think that, going through the work I've done to make either of the stocks more shootable/accurate, I can see how going with the chassis set-up from the get go is money well spent. I do like tinkering and messing with DIY, but I've finally realized the benefits of a chassis. I was happy to see that an un-bedded chassis (you can skim bed if you're not happy with the accuracy out of the box) didn't negatively affect the accuracy of my .308. Still a 1/2 MOA rifle if I do my part.

Sounds like how I am...I cant stand buying things when I can make/modify them better myself. Not to say that a 1000 dollar McMillian isn't a lot better because it is when it comes to durability, weight, and finish, but for the budget guy, I think Boyds has it cornered if you are willing to do DIY stuff.

[lrshooting]

Also note I did buy the criterion "match grade" barrel. It was 330 dollars. The two reasons I went that way is they offer a light varmint contour and they had one in stock. If you are not in a rush and don't mind waiting 6 months...order a full custom shilen in the contour you want. I believe they take orders instead of ordering one of their cookie cutter savage prefits. Price will be close to the same...unless you order extras like fluting or brake instalation it's just they won't get it to you for a good amount of time.

Not to argue here, but Shilen will not flute barrels for you. If they do, then it voids the warranty. At least thats what they told me. I dont particularly want to wait 6 months though. Otherwise, definetly. I just can see the time justification for what is likely no accuracy gain unless I am shooting long and hard sessions. Thank you for the insight though. Seems like either way I go, I am going to be okay. I like the idea of a slightly heavier varmint barrel on the criterion, but like the track record with shilen. We shall see :)

[rbp75503]

Not to argue here, but Shilen will not flute barrels for you. If they do, then it voids the warranty. At least thats what they told me. I dont particularly want to wait 6 months though. Otherwise, definetly. I just can see the time justification for what is likely no accuracy gain unless I am shooting long and hard sessions. Thank you for the insight though. Seems like either way I go, I am going to be okay. I like the idea of a slightly heavier varmint barrel on the criterion, but like the track record with shilen. We shall see :)

I don't know when it took 6 months to get a barrel from Shilen, but I ordered a 6mmX45 Shilen Barrel from NSS December 12th 2014 received second week of Jan 2015. Shilen dropped shipped directly to me.
Chat with Jim at NSS for latest ship times.

[D.ID]

You can also buy a "factory contoured" shilen blank from midway at around $200 and get it chambered at your favorite smith to speed up the process. Total cost about the same as ordering from shilin and waiting.

[lrshooting]

I went ahead, contacted Jim again, and got the varmint barrel. Super nice guy to deal with. I figured as much from the first time I called him. I got the 26 inch SS Select Match. I figured that for the 40$ price difference, I would get it and be happy knowing I got the "best." But heck, I doubt itll shoot any better, but placebos work too! It does have the 11 degree target crown which Im not crazy about, but I have a guy around here who loves his guns and his tools and will thread/crown my barrel and do so in a proper manner if I so chose. Hes got several thousand dollars worth of suppressors on his guns, so Im sure that he triple checks his concentrically and measurements so he doesn't go blowing out the baffles. Ill see how it shoots first though. Ill just need to be extra careful if I keep the 11 degree crown so it doesn't get messed up. My tactical crowns have always been pretty robust when it comes to truck guns for coyotes. Ill post pics when I get it done! Gotta get my DBM, stock, TPS Steel scope base, and a good set of rings and im good to go!