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Thread: SAVAGE and BHW chosen for 6.5 CREEDMOOR build

  1. #76
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    During the last few years as a machine designer before retirement last fall I had almost daily interaction with several machine shops including our own. Always their question concerned lthe accuracy of the drawing vs the actual model. Sometimes it was as simple as a hole call-out, sometimes not. A lot of the young designers in our group had no machine shop experience so there were struggles.
    Your project seems like it would add a whole new chapter including the tooling, feed speeds for wood etc. When modeling the action/barrel do you have to shrink the model a tad to leave material for final inletting or can you adjust the CAM program? Or will it line to line the wood? Taking the extra material out early for bedding seems like a maybe too! The Forstner bit for the pillars seems like a thing of the past!
    Like CBIshooter said; "Wow".
    Randy

  2. #77
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    Randy,

    I'll be building the model of the action to exact measurments.

    Later in CAM stage, I can tell it to cut extra out on the sides and even more on the bottom.

    Last time (220-Swift stock) I was using different CAM software. I could only tell it to take out extra as a function of the bit...so 10% more, or something like that.

    Yes, I'll inlet extra material removal to allow for bedding.

    I can test fit the barreled action while the stock is still set up in the mill vice...then tell the code to cut a bit further if necessary.

    Same with the bottom metal (PTG Stealth). Model, cut, test fit, asjust, cut again.

  3. #78
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    Couldn't find my calipers...so, had to wait for the UPS man to bring a new set.

    I am modeling up the inletting using Fusion360. This is actually pretty easy and quick.

    My method for this involves very little measuring...but a good bit of picture taking.

    So, the CAD software (Fusion360) allows the import of a 'canvas'. You can calibrate the canvas using dimensions on the picture.
    I took my Accustock, Action, and Bottom metal, and took pictures of each item.

    I started by just taking a picture with the phone and importing into Fusion360. However, because I wasnt holding the camera only 2 ft away, the close perspective meant that the further things were from the center of the picture...the more distorted the measurements were going to be. This is hard to explain without a lot of words - if you want to get into the angles and the terminology, look up lens distortion and perspectives.




    The picture needs to have as little distortion as possible, so I grabbed the ol'SLR and the 300mm lens and took the pictures from as far away as practical.




    You import the image and use edges or items in the image to calibrate the 'canvas'.



    You can then take the calibrated image...and the real item and a set of recently delivered calipers...and start recreating the item in CAD.
    With the image to work from and a few measurements from the actual item, you can create all the shapes needed to inlet the bottom metal or trigger cavity really quickly.



    I recreated the action, a rough trigger, and the action screws. This will allow alignment of everything else. As sharpshooter pointed out over 3 years ago, I should have built this model first and then referenced the rest of the stock off of it.



    I built and added the bottom metal shapes I need for the inlet, and added the Action, Trigger, Screws and Bottom metal to the Stock model.



    This week, I should be able to chuck up the stock in the vice and get all the remaining cuts done. Action and Barrel Channel, Bottom metal, etc.

  4. #79
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    Nice looking stock. I expect if it was figured walnut the wrist could well be problematic. Given that it's a resin impregnated laminate, I would imagine it to be pretty strong. I'm not a fan of finger grooves on target rifle grips, but that's just me. Well done. Bet you have to park your car in the driveway, right?

  5. #80
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    Sorry, I can't take no more......I'm in agony watching you struggle with this marathon stock build, so I feel the need to interject. Please don't feel offended, I just have some constructive criticism.

    Before you cut the inlet, you need to have the trigger located. The easiest way to do this is with a mock up trigger locator. This is simply a strap of sheet metal (1/16" thick) with a trigger bow that mimics the actual trigger and a hole that corresponds to the front trigger guard hole.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Once you get the trigger in position where it is comfortable, you mark the hole location. That location is now the X,Y .0. Everything is referenced from this point. Use the top of the stock for the Z.0. When it comes time for the inlet of the trigger guard and magazine frame, you will need reference the Z from the bottom of the receiver, which will be tough if you don't have a fixture. Here are the fixtures that I use.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    This consists of 2 self centering vises with a spring loaded pin that locates on the reference hole in the stock.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Once the stock is placed on the pin, it pushes the stock up so you can set it flush with the vise jaws, that is the Z .0.
    Now the top can be inletted, but for the bottom, another sub fixture is added to accurately locate the top to the bottom.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    This sub fixture still uses the pin for location on X&Y, but now the Z .0 is on top of the sub fixture. This keeps the distance between the receiver and mag frame consistent.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    I hope this will help you speed things up. When you started this thread, I planted a tree.......
    "As long as there's lead in the air....there's still hope.."

  6. #81
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    I never try to disagree with anyone (especially sharpshooter) so in this case I will just voice my opinion.
    The only struggling I've seen here has been equipment issues (routers switches & collets). I admire the patience it took to do this in a home shop and what it takes to stick to (and modify when necessary) a well thought out plan. We must remember a complete home brew stock used to start with a plank, saw, hammer and chisel! My bet is the trigger placement was most likely in the original hand sketches before modeling started and it's location is correct for his wife's hand.
    IMHO,
    Randy

  7. #82
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    This post will be a bit of a ramble...a bit of a trip down memory lane...and a bit of showing off (220-Swift). There are flaws in some of the work I am going to show...It isnt perfect - but it is/was the best I could do with the time, money, effort, skills, tools, and talents I have/had at that time.

    So...a few years ago, I posted a shot bit about the 220-Swift stock that I helped make. This was cut on my CNC machine. I did the CAM and the setups...my good friend did the CAD. The 220-Swift stock was made as a present for his Dad.

    Here is the CAD for the 220-Swift stock (in brown) - and two versions of the 6.5 Creedmoor. The Yellow is a close version to what I am currently cutting out...and the gold/silver one is a variation that I didnt finish the CAD changes to. I was attempting to make changes to the grip/wrist of the stock, but never finished. That idea got scrapped.



    For fun and for later discussion, I am going to add some show off pictures of that 220-Swift stock. I actually didn't talk about it much at the beginning of this adventure.

    It was built out of CAD that was pure imagination...very little experience...and very limited CAD skills.
    There is some inspiration from the GRS rifle stocks...which were pretty new 3+ years ago.
    Some parts of the design really show off the color changes in the laminate.

    There aren't too many parts of the design that I really helped with...but the grip area and the cheek riser are two of those areas.



    The cheek riser is an overlapping piece. It isn't sliced off the stock like most are, but is actually an inlet to slide over a cut in the stock portion. Inside the cheek riser is an aluminum spacer block. The action and scope was mounted. Then, the cheek riser was test fit and spaced up with thin washers. Once the shooters eye was centered behind the scope, the final plate was machined and fit inside the cheek riser block. - I'm going to include a picture of the CAD to illustrate that a bit better.

    The 220-Swift stock was built in CAD using reference stocks. A Savage 10TR accustock...a Savage 11 tupperware stock...and even an ERGO AR15 with the palm shelf.
    With no real experience in building a custom rifle stock...all these inputs were used and carefully measured and recreated in drawings and CAD.
    The trigger to grip to action relationship was built and measured and rebuilt and remeasured.

    Another unique feature on this same stock is the trigger guard inlet.
    The trigger guard is actually recessed into a 'corner' with just a little of the laminate on each side to 'hide' the rear trigger guard screw. The wood that is left doesn't interfere with correct trigger finger positioning, but it does look distinct.



    I didn't design this stock. I was able to provide some input - mostly saying whether I thought I could cut it out with the tools I had...or if the reach or angle was going to be too challenging for mine or my machine's abilities.

    The finish work that he did is, in my opinion, Amazing. The entire finish is tru-oil. It looks like automotive clearcoat in person. I tried to take pictures that would show the features of the stock and the quality of the finish. My friend and his Dad get lots of compliments from folks that have seen the rifle. Once the story is told...that this was a birthday gift...and that it was the first time attempting such a project...and that the entire thing is custom? - yeah, most folks don't believe it.



    ^^ here you can see some of the design bits behind the scenes of the cheek riser -

    The 6.5 Creedmoor stock that I am currently working on (rendered in silver now) shows very different design style, but was mostly done by the same guy in CAD.

    The Creedmoor stock was actually designed in CAD using the 220-swift as a dimensional template. We knew exactly where the action was going to be and exactly where the trigger was going to be.
    The model I am working with for my CAM steps already has the inlet for the action already done and the recoil lug cut in place.

    Something that Sharpshooter was mentioning was the trigger position and the X,Y zero point - and I completely agree.
    I wasn't building those models of the action and trigger to do guess work. I have an old CAD model of the action and trigger and trigger inlet - just that it was built in the 'old' software, and I wanted to rebuild it in Fusion360.

    The 220-Swift that is being used as a CAD dimensional reference was a single shot Target Action. It is a Short Action 'length'.
    The action is the same length, and the recoil lug and trigger inlets are the same.
    The action screws are different...and I will be doing a DBM bottom metal inlet.

    I read back and looked at all the pciture I posted...and none of them clearly show the inside-top of the stock inlet I am working with.



    I have a 10TR with the same PTG bottom metal already bedded in a Boyds ProVarmint stock, so I think I know my Z distance for the bottom metal ensuring that a round is tripped from the mag. There are some things that still need to be checked and refined...

    Sharpshooter, your fixtures are impressive. I'm not going to build anything that robust this project...but the ideas are helpful.

  8. #83
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    Yes, you can cut aluminum with a circular saw.
    Yes, you can level something...and have it still be crooked.

    I am cutting the inlet in the top of the stock. I need to move from laying the stock on its side...to holding it upright.
    My milling vice isn't actually tall enough to hold the stock without the pistol grip hitting the fixture plate.
    So...I need soft-jaws. 'Extended height' soft jaws.

    I ran into this same problem a few years ago when I cut the 220-Swift stock. I had some spare 7/8" aluminum laying around, so I cut out some jaws and drilled the bolt holes for my vice. These were actually kinda nicely made. They were flat and square.

    I went searching for them for use on this stock. There are two problems. One, we moved houses 2 years ago...so, my ability to find things is still suffering from that event. Two, I have some vague memory of using one of the 'jaws' to make something else out of.

    Regardless, I need a second tall soft jaw. I happen to have some other 1/2" aluminum...and I was not feeling like wasting time messing around, so I brought it out to the garage and ran through it with the circular saw. All I'll say is...it worked, and I still have all my parts attached. No, it wasn't safe.



    With that done, I wrapped the jaws in paper and electrical tape...just to cushion a bit against the maple.
    I mounted the dial-indicator to the column and leveled the stock in the vice.

    I used the hold-down clamps to push UP on the stock...
    check back and forth with dial indicator...up a little over here...down a little over there...back and forth...I was very careful about this step.
    I wanted the stock to be 'dialed in' to less than 10-thousandths across ~16" of travel.

    Finally, I was ready to zero the bit on the back edge and begin the first cut on the inlet.



    I didn't let it run long. Something was off.

    While I had leveled the stock 'precisely'...I hadn't ensured that it wasn't crooked.
    I assumed that my vice would hold it straight. It didn't.
    My first cut on the inlet area was out almost an 1/8" over ~8" of travel.



    Given the late hour...and the fact that I had cut away my zero point again...I re-centered the bit on the stock and marked it.
    I'll start the machine and zero off this point when I get back to it.

  9. #84
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    That's the exact reason I drill a hole where the front trigger guard screw goes, then zero off of that.
    "As long as there's lead in the air....there's still hope.."

  10. #85
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    I agree with sharpshooter. I probably would start with a counter bore from the blank top to anticipated action center line with smaller indexing hole at its center with depth to reach through trigger area. It would provide x,y, & z for entire project. Counter bore face being "z".

  11. #86
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    Reading along for the education, but that makes great sense what mnbogboy2 said

    slow and low is the tempo.

  12. #87
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    Slow is what PB is going to feel once he starts sanding and wet sanding. Rubbing in that oil leaving blisters & calluses. I bet it's going to be beautiful! I will wait patiently (or at least pretend l am).
    Randy

  13. #88
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    My tree is almost ready to harvest.......
    "As long as there's lead in the air....there's still hope.."

  14. #89
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    Did I miss anything? I fell asleep in the shade underneath sharpshooter's tree! Woke up wondering if an update on progress was missed.
    Not trying to rush but this project is interesting and looking forward to the positive reward of a job well done.

  15. #90
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    Latest update - these pictures are about 2 weeks old at this point...

    I did a little thinking about how to hold the stock on the CNC machine. Sharpshooter's jigs and vice setup is kinda inspiring.
    I (of course) took the slightly less robust route in the setup.

    The previous attempt used setup blocks and clamps.
    The 'new' setup used some scrap 1x4 board and the vice and clamps and...it worked well enough.



    I was able to get the stock level (up down tilt) and straight (left right twist).

    I prepped the code, zero'd the bit and hit go.
    One operation for roughing...then a second operation as a finishing pass.
    It came out pretty well, and appears to be quite straight.



    I prepped another batch of code and checked to see where it was going to go compared to what was previously run.
    Hit go...and we have a magwell.
    - the magwell is not for a blind mag in this case...I will be using PTG bottom metal.



    The picture above says 'magwell complete' - which is actually not true. This was as far as I was comfortable cutting with the specific router bit I had in the machine.

    I prepped and ran code for the trigger pocket. This is cut slightly smaller than both Savage factory stocks and Boyd's stocks are cut. I checked and rechecked and measured and remeasured. I am 'pretty sure' that the sear/bolt release will clear with no interference.

    The action screw holes were also drilled out. This was done while the machine was setup and zero'd in this configuration. Without speed control, the bit was turning ~20k rpm and thats a bit much for drilling. it got toasty...even though I tried to get it done quickly.



    As you can see in the picture above - I cut the center of the magwell a smidge deeper also when I cut out the trigger pocket. If I constrained the operation so that it only cut the center of the magwell - then the locking nut on the spindle didn't rub the side.

    After the magwell and trigger pocket were cut out, I was able to test fit the action into the inlet.
    The trigger clears, the action sits 'slightly deeper' than it should - which is okay, as it will get bedded to the proper height.
    I think I have decided to cut the slot for the bolt handle by hand. This will be done later right before finishing.

    and.........
    of course - in the middle of celebrating completing the top inletting - something has to go wrong.
    I got a little 'bit walk' while drilling the action screw holes. the bit (end mill) that I used started to slip in the collet.
    I torqued on the collet pretty good when I switched the bits for cutting the trigger pocket.

    Well, when everything was done and I tried to loosen the collet nut...crack!
    I opened up the router to see what had broken. Unfortunately...the frame of the router itself broke.



    Looks like I'll be doing the rest of the inlet work with the slower rpm mill head.
    anyways. thats the current status.

  16. #91
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    And people complain when a stock from Fred takes 6 months. This thread has been running since Feb 2015!

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