Is the .17 Mach 2 cartridge Dying??

[wcmd]

I have a chance to buy a Mark 2 FV in .17 M2, for a good deal, basically for $100.00 less than the same in .22LR.
Was looking for a Mark 2 FV in .22LR and I may still buy it but, I don't want to buy the M2 and not be able to buy ammo for it in a couple years.
Thanks for looking,
wcmd.

[J.Baker]

Yes, the Mach 2 is all but dead. It has a small cult following, but most of the industry has cut their offerings down the the bare minimum as far as chambered guns.

Keep looking for that 22LR....ammo's cheaper and much easier to find, and you know you'll always be able to get it.

[shelbyfan]

Not many guns but tons of ammo for it. Eley, Hornady, Remington and CCI have all stated they will continue to produce. It is cheap to make as all the components are already built.

The 22lr cannot even compare to the HM2 for anything other than target shooting. And to do better you need to spend considerably more on 22lr to shoot better.

Buy it, you won't regret it.

[J.Baker]

What useful purpose did/does the HM2 ever serve?

It's too destructive to use on small game that you'd normally use a 22LR on unless you go for head shots only.

The ammo is 3-4 times the cost of 22LR ammunition (hunting grade, which is what all the HM2 ammo is), and all you get in return is about 25 yards or so of additional range before the velocity bleeds off and it starts dropping like a rock.

The 17 HM2 was basically a one-year wonder. Hornady saw the success of the 17 HMR and figured if a necked down version of a 22 mag did so well then a necked down 22LR would do equally as well. Well, it did....for the first 8-10 months. After that dealers and distributors couldn't give the guns away. Most marked them down as much as 50% just to get them out of inventory.

At the same time the firearms manufacturers saw that the sales just weren't there like they were with the 17 HMR, and as such drastically cut back their offerings in 17 HM2. Savage cut their number of SKU's chambered in 17 HM2 by about 75% after the first year. Marlin and Ruger drastically cut their number of offerings as well.

Is there anything wrong with the HM2? No....not physically. What it fails to do thought is offer much benefit over the 22LR to warrant and justify the additional cost of the ammunition. It's generally a little more accurate at similar ranges, it has a slightly longer range, but that's about it.

As noted above, it's hunting applications are greatly limited as well. Yeah, it gives you the velocity and accuracy to drop squirrels out of trees from 75 yards, but the damage done by the bullet ruins the meat. Never tried it on rabbits, but I'm guessing it would have the same effect. It's also worthless on all but the smallest groundhogs as anything less than a head shot at 50 yards or more will just be a flesh wound. Probably good for Prairie Dogs inside 100 yards or so, but that's about it.

So where's the real benefit of the HM2? There isn't one, which is what the market realized after the initial
buzz of a new cartridge wore off.

[Eric in NC]

+1 - ammo is plentiful right now, but when the gun companies quit making guns, the ammo won't stick around for long (see 5mm Remington, 256 Winchester, 22 Jet, 357 Max etc. - about the only one like that that you can find is the 22 WRF but that is pretty tough to find and gets spendy quick).

[shaman]

http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums...d.php?t=333643

The gun can always be built, ammo goes down to $3.92 when bought in bulk(2000). People have made shots much longer than 5 yards with it. It will stay within 1" out 115 yards. whether it dies or not, $400 will get your more than enough hunting ammo for a lifetime. It's a hunting round, just like the hmr, but is more accurate than most 22lr in the $4 price range. No dying round will release new ammo(the coming no-lead). Dying guns, maybe, but the ammo will not be drying up anytime soon I am told.

[shelbyfan]

Lets start.

Triple the range of a LR. Out to 100 yards the HMR and HM2 are basically identical. At 4-5 dollars a box of 50 that is not double the price of good hunting 22. Destruction on small game is also very large with many 22's, to much to use. Ammo like the CCI Stinger, Remington Yellow Jacket, Aguila Hyper Velocity all cause just as much damage. I have taken everything from small squirrels to rabbits and even a coon with my HM2. Yeah, head shots are appropriate on game you are planning on eating. But for eradication it does not matter. Many "budget" LR does not work properly with the HP's not opening. Comparing bulk HP 22lr to a jacketed ballistic tip and saying they are in any way or form close to equal is downright wrong. As for accuracy. If any type of ammo you shoot in an HM2 does not pull 1/2 @ 50 yards something is wrong with the shooter or gun. It is an inherently accurate design. Can't say that about comparably priced 22lr ammo.

The HM2 was not made to go after the 22lr, it was made to be a budget HMR round (the HM2 was designed first BTW).

Comparing it to the 5mm is just asinine. The 5mm was flawed from the beginning, and it had nothing to do with the capabilities of the round. One manufacturer of rifle and bullets, one bullet type. And it was expensive compared to the 22WMR. The HM2 was made in the tens of thousands by tons of different manufacturers as was the ammo. This means there will always be a market for the HM2 ammo.

Before you go spouting the death of a round and it's imminent demise, go to RFC and see how many people are buying the guns and ammo buy the tens of thousands of rounds. And try shooting it yourself.

[shaman]

http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums...d.php?t=311347

To be honest, I see the HMR as the left out round, monetarily speaking. THe LR is for plinking, and long range training if you will, HM2 for hunting small stuff. and the WMR for the big(for a rimfire) stuff.

[davemuzz]

Just to chirp in on this.......I know your looking at the price of the gun and thinking....HMMmmm, good gun price.

However, I'm not much of a 17 rimfire fan. I'm thinking if you want to kill something.....go with a 22 mag as you have plenty of ammo choices and the 22 mag isn't going away.

Now....for my "soap-box" on the 17 caliber.....If you happen to reload, I would strongly suggest you buy something in a 17 Fireball. If you don't reload, I would suggest you buy an el-chepo Lee kit and learn!! The Fireball will toss a 25gr. Berger at 3800 fps and will kill anything from a Crow to a fox.....to a Coyote (with proper shot placement) out to 200 yards. Energy falls off quickly after that.

But, I've shot small furry things at 40 yards with the Fireball and have had instant kills with no fur damage!

And with reloading......cost of ammo is dirt cheap! Or cheaper than dirt!....or pretty cheap dirt.....or something like that.

Anyway......save your $100.....add some more and get something that is more versital to add to your arsenal!!! (Now....if I could just spell)

MHO

Dave

[shelbyfan]

I have to agree with the 22WMR argument. Since the HMR put a serious smack down on the WMR the ammo companies have stepped up their game with new WMR ammo. Still is not as flat shooting as the HMR but it is a lot heavier and is ballistically superior to what was out 5 years ago.

[shaman]

WCMD, you never said what you are going to use the gun for. You could always buy it, and get it rebarreled if it dies. There is a thread on RFC, and I think here too, on rebarreling Savages.

[revbc]

The M2 suffers from an identity crisis. The average sportsman did not realize it was a necked down 22lr (stinger) case. Most looked at the ballistics of it compared to the hmr, which is superior. However, in certain parts of the country we have no need for a hmr or 22mag. Here in central LA there are no varmints to shoot long range except maybe coyotes which need IMO a 223 or larger. We need a good squirrel gun. The 22mag is to dangerous, the hmr to much, and to expensive. The m2 fills the bill, with a ballistically superior bullet that deadens a squirrel when shot in the body. The 22lr cannot match the killing power of the m2. I have hunted fox and cat squirrels for years with a 22, with many body shots on large squirrels they live long enough to go in a hole or cover themselves up after being knocked out of the tree. They will die, but not be recovered. The m2 is deadly and the bullets are frangible, not nearly as prone to ricochets as a 22lr. The 22lr is a good bit cheaper to shoot if you buy cheap bullets, but the m2 is a squirrel hunters dream. It's not dead, get the rifle.

[shaman]

If you want to hunt, a 17 gr. Vmax is much safer than a 40 gr. solid. The hm2 won't hold energy as far as a 22LR, but will be flatter, and easier to put the power where you want it.

http://www.varmintal.com/17hmrdp2.png

http://www.varmintal.com/energy.png

[Teddy Bear]

http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums...d.php?t=311347

To be honest, I see the HMR as the left out round, monetarily speaking. THe LR is for plinking, and long range training if you will, HM2 for hunting small stuff. and the WMR for the big(for a rimfire) stuff.

I couldn't be happier with my 17hmr. I've had it for 2 years and I've had more small game(skunks,racoons,groundhogs)drop in their tracks than I ever did with my 22mag. Still have yet to try it on a fox or coyote. Ammo here is only marginally more $$ than the 22mag and at .30 cents a shot does not seem like much compared to shooting a slug gun where it might run $3-5 a shot. I guess it all depends on what each person likes to use.

I also heard a rumor that they were coming out with a 15gr bullet, can anyone confirm this or is my buddy high??

[shaman]

http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums...d.php?t=311347

To be honest, I see the HMR as the left out round, monetarily speaking. THe LR is for plinking, and long range training if you will, HM2 for hunting small stuff. and the WMR for the big(for a rimfire) stuff.

I couldn't be happier with my 17hmr. I've had it for 2 years and I've had more small game(skunks,racoons,groundhogs)drop in their tracks than I ever did with my 22mag. Still have yet to try it on a fox or coyote. Ammo here is only marginally more $$ than the 22mag and at .30 cents a shot does not seem like much compared to shooting a slug gun where it might run $3-5 a shot. I guess it all depends on what each person likes to use.

I also heard a rumor that they were coming out with a 15gr bullet, can anyone confirm this or is my buddy high??

non-lead round for the condor area

http://www.hornady.com/store/17-HMR-15.5-gr-NTX/

http://www.hornady.com/store/17-Mach2-15.5-gr-NTX/

[revbc]

Sure doesn't look like hornady would have released a new cartridge for the Mach 2 if it was dead or quickly dying. This is 2010 offerings.

http://www.hornady.com/store/NTX-newammo

[davemuzz]

Sure doesn't look like hornady would have released a new cartridge for the Mach 2 if it was dead or quickly dying. This is 2010 offerings.

http://www.hornady.com/store/NTX-newammo

Not a "new cartridge".....but just a new lead free bullet for both the M2 and the HMR. Hornady has worked to develop this new lead free bullet for a variety of calibers. A great effort to keep the shooting community out ahead of the Kalifornia Kondor Lead munching crowd and the don't eat lead when you shoot the deer crowd.

Dave

[revbc]

My grammatical error. It is not a new cartridge, but a new offering for the said dying M2. The M2 is an excellent and efficient rd. when used for the intended game, big ole fox squirrels!

Bobby

[nodak]

I have one of these in a MKII FV. It shoots so well that I stocked up on 4000 rnds of Eley. I love my 22 but the HM2 gets used more for everything but paper. The accuracy is so good that olny my friends Anschutz is as good and the ammo he uses is twice the cost of mine. I'm so smitten by it I am building a custom stock and bolt for it. Might even silence it too. I won't say it's the best thing ever but it is far better then most 22's I've used.

[Teddy Bear]

Of the 3 smaller local shops in my area only ever saw 1 HM2 for sale, but each store was well stocked with HMR's.

[shaman]

Bet you won't find many 338 Lapua Magnums in most gun stores either. That doesn't mean there isn't a market for it.

[Teddy Bear]

Sure but the HM2's and HMR's are a relatively new breed and the average joe that walks in and has never heard of them and is looking for a rimfire would buy a 22 if there's nothing else on the shelf that catches his eye.

[revbc]

"The common .22 rimfire Short cartridge dates from the period of the American Civil War. It was first used in a S&W pocket pistol introduced in 1857 and it is the oldest cartridge still being loaded today." Chuck Hawks.

There is no doubt the M2 suffers from an identity crisis as I stated in a previous post. However, the 22 rimfire has had quite awhile to make a name for itself. As I said, the average Joe sportsman looked at the ballistics of the HMR compared to the M2 and chose the HMR. The HMR is a fine cartridge in its on right, but way overkill for squirrels and small game not shot at varmint rifle distances. I like my 22's, but I love this M2.

[davemuzz]

IMHO......If your looking for a cartridge with a bullet that is absolutely fantastic on varmints the size of groundhogs out to 125 yards, and shoots flat out to that range, then you should look at buying a box of the Hornady 22 Mag 32gr. V-Max.

This relatively new product (I think they introduced it a little over a year ago) gives me .5" groups at 100 yards from my Winchester 9422 Mag. consistently and I just don't get any "flyers."

And when that G-hog gets thumped by that little 32 grain red tipped bullet, it just plain flops! Some may give a one or two step effort, but that's about the best.

Now, I've hit 'em at that range with "regular" 22 mag 40gr. ammo and watched 'em run 25 yards to their hole and down. But not with this Hornady ammo.

And accuracy?? Have a Crow land in the 125 yard "Zone". If I do my part it's "feather pile!"

If you have a 22 mag rifle just lyin around, pick up a box and try it. You may be surprised.

Dave

[revbc]

Dave,
Not exactly sure the size of a groundhog, but apparently its bigger than a fox squirrel. Sounds like the 22mag is doing the job for you. I think this new ammo is the product of the 17 performance jump. But to get back to the OP's discussion, I don't think this new 22mag ammo is going to make the 22lr obsolete, just as the performance of the HMR is not going to make the M2 obsolete.

I know the sales on the M2's (rifles) have taken a dip, but they are still being manufactured by Savage and maybe a few others.