Reply With Quote28 views and not a single comment? Sheesh...this place nothing more than a bunch of looky-loo's now or what?
I'm sure more than a few of you have noticed that the Classifieds have gotten rather slow in the last 2-3 years. Where it used to be we would have 10+ pages of active for-sale listings for parts at any given time, now we're lucky to have a single full page (25 threads) of listings. And if you've been one trying to sell anything you've probably noticed that no one's biting unless you put a Crazy Larry's Bargain Basement Blowout price on it.
So what happened? The answer is really quite simple - cheap guns.
Back in the day if you wanted to get an action to build a custom on your only options were to a) find a used bare action, b) buy a complete older used rifle and part it out, or c) buy a new rifle and part it out. Prior to the introduction of the AccuTrigger and the round top action most guys chose option A or B because it was the cheapest. However, if they wanted a stainless steal action they pretty much had to go with option C as there weren't many used SS guns out there as they had only been on the market for a couple years.
At that time (pre-2003) you could purchase a complete used flat-back 110 for $250-300 pretty much all day long (new 110's and 111's Hunter series models were selling for around $400). Being used you could expect to get $40-50 out of the barrel and another $50 out of a hardwood stock. Tupperware stocks weren't worth anything and were usually just thrown in the trash. If you could find someone selling one, a flat-back action could be had for around $200.
When Savage switched to the round-top action everybody immediately started wanting them as it eliminated the age-old problem of the rear flat being ground improperly at the factory and not being square which caused scope alignment issues. As a result most guys stopped looking for and buying up the old flat-backs and started buying brand new guns to tear down. Base Model 10/110's were selling for around $450 at this point, a hardwood stock would still fetch $50, and a new take-off sporter barrel would typically go for around $75. So after parting it out you would have roughly $325 in the action for your build.
If you wanted a stainless steel action the smart move was to purchase a top end varmint model like the 12 BVSS or 12 VLP as the take-off parts were worth more and easier to sell. Both were selling for around $700 at the time. A new take-off SS heavy fluted barrel would typically sell for $150 and a new take-off laminate BVSS or VLP stock would fetch $200-225 all day long. In the end you'd end up having $325-350 in the SS action, basically the same as you'd have in the blued action if you bought a base hunting model rifle and parted it out.
Then Savage had the stupid idea to come out with the Stevens 200 and price it to be sold on the street right at $300. It was basically the same as the 11/111F models that were selling for $450, but had a grey stock rather than black and it had the old-style non-adjustable trigger rather than the AccuTrigger. What it did have though was the round-top action that EVERYBODY wanted and it instantly became the rifle everyone bought to build off of unless they wanted a SS action. The new take-off sporter barrel would fetch around $75 and the stock would find it's way to the trash can leaving you with just $225 in a brand new round-top blued action.
Probably the biggest hit to the new take-off parts market however was Savage's decision to start selling actions. In doing so they eliminated the need for people to buy a complete rifle and part it out to get their action. That put and end to the steady supply of heavy SS take-off barrels and the nice Model 12 laminate take-ff stocks in the classifieds.
Now we're pretty much up to present day with the Axis coming on scene and putting yet another fatal wound into the used/take-off Savage parts market. Like the Stevens 200 the Axis was extremely cheap with a street price starting around $280 and you could often find them on sale for $250 or less. However, unlike the Stevens 200 it took the Axis awhile to come into it's own as there were no aftermarket stocks readily available for it and the factory stock was horrible. Now that aftermarket stocks are available the Axis has really taken off and is the popular choice for a budget minded custom build as it's ability to be either a long or short action by merely changing the magazine and stock is a huge benefit - especially if you're one of the few remaining guys who have multiple barrels to use with the same action.
The final nail in the coffin though - in my opinion at least - was Boyds strange decision to slash their stock prices by nearly 40% about a year and a half ago. Previously most of Boyds finished laminate stocks sold for around $160-180 and they were dominating the market at that price. It's for that reason I can't fathom why they would voluntarily cut their prices so drastically and start selling the exact same stocks for $100-120 all day, every day. There was no new competition that came onto the market cutting into their market share and forcing them to lower their prices to get it back, so basically they just chose to cut their own profits for no readily identifiable reason.
What did happen though is that almost overnight every other laminate stock maker saw their business come to a screeching halt because there was no way they could compete or even come remotely close to Boyds new pricing. Having spoken with a few of these stock makers in the last year I've learned that just the price of the laminate blank is around $40-50 depending on what kind of quantity discount they're getting from the supplier. Now add in about 4 hours of labor to go from a raw blank to a finished stock, and add in the cost of a butt pad, sling studs and any other included hardware (trigger guard, magazine bracket, pillars, etc.). Naturally Boyds probably gets their blanks a good bit cheaper due to volume purchasing, and their machines allow them to produce multiple stocks at a time, but still...given the labor and cost of parts going into each stock I can't see how they're making a profit at these new prices.
Combine the new low-cost Axis with Boyds extremely low price stocks and it's no surprise the used and take-off parts market has dried up. When you can buy a complete gun and put a quality aftermarket stock on it for less than the cost of most quality aftermarket barrels it's no surprise no one's parting out guns or doing switch barrel rifles anymore. Instead guys are just adding more and more complete guns to their collection because it's cheaper and faster.
"Life' is tough. It's even tougher if you're stupid." ~ John Wayne
“Under certain circumstances, urgent circumstances, desperate circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.” —Mark Twain
28 views and not a single comment? Sheesh...this place nothing more than a bunch of looky-loo's now or what?
"Life' is tough. It's even tougher if you're stupid." ~ John Wayne
“Under certain circumstances, urgent circumstances, desperate circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.” —Mark Twain
You think it might also have something to do with the scare of 2012 after Sandy Hook? A lot of people went out and bought everything gun related and now a lot of people have a surplus?
They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
It's just that your OP nailed it! Whachagonnado? I'd like to be able to sell the ones I built up and proved to be accurate performers, but the new market keeps buyers from paying even the amount I have in the build.Originally Posted by J. Baker
I don't know how much of an effect that's having on the Savage parts market, but I know that it's had a HUGE effect on the firearms market as a whole. The Sandy Hook bubble finally burst early last summer and sales of guns seemed to come to a theoretical screeching halt compared to what they had been the prior year and a half. It's why Savage and so many other manufacturers started offering all those rebates and incentives to buy. When the sales fell off abruptly production was still at full tilt and there was an instant surplus in the manufacturers and distributors warehouses that needed to move. It's also why some manufacturers have now dropped their MSRP pricing on some very popular models - a few of which I just happened to purchase very reasonably at the time and now if I tried to sell them I'd loose my butt on them due to the significant price drop. Always my luck!
This is also why by and large there wasn't a lot of major new product reveals at this years SHOT Show. The manufacturers know the market is saturated and that sales are going to be in a bit of a lull for a while, so no sense in investing a lot of time, money and development into a new product right now. That's not to say there's nothing new as there is - some of which I think is very noteworthy and will prove to sell well.
"Life' is tough. It's even tougher if you're stupid." ~ John Wayne
“Under certain circumstances, urgent circumstances, desperate circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.” —Mark Twain
I absolutely love the Classifieds here. This site was the first forum I was apart of and completely revolutionized the way I buy and sell.
I am relatively new to any Forum, but cannot imagine it any better than it is right now. I find awesome parts all the time. I sell awesome parts all the time. My small bit of experience does show "seasons" of which buying and selling are better then others.
I'm excited about 2015. I'm excited to see how my collection of firearms and parts expands. It always starts right here.
Well, that's the reality of selling custom builds anyway. Any custom build you'll be lucky to get 60-75% of what you have in it back out of it. It's no different than restoring classic cars - you sink $100,000+ into a first rate resto knowing full well when it's done the finished product will only be worth maybe $50-60k at best.
"Life' is tough. It's even tougher if you're stupid." ~ John Wayne
“Under certain circumstances, urgent circumstances, desperate circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.” —Mark Twain
I don't post anything before finishing my first cup of coffee.... Now that I have, here are some things I have noticed.
I think what you said is right on, but I have also noticed in the last ten years that society in general has changed and its turned into a downward spiral. Most often when you see someone selling something online, weather on a forum or a classified, the price is jacked up so high that in turn it is cheaper to buy new and build yourself. Usually they don't know the true value of what they have and are hoping for some poor fool to take it off there hands for more than what its worth. The opposite side of that is buyers in todays society. I have bought and sold many things online, and it seems everyone wants something for nothing. I totally understand bartering a price, but it seems that the norm for today is to offer 1/2 of the asking price first thing.
Now this may have nothing to do with what your post was getting at, but I think it could play a part in it. I do want to point out that in no way am I implying this to this forum, as I haven't been here very long, but in general when it comes to online buying and selling.
Anyway, just a thought..
All you hoarders just need to let go and get that stuff listed in the classifieds.
Originally Posted by keeki
Guess it doesn't really matter. If ya cant afford $15, you won't be buying much anyways
I'm amassing a pile of things for a spring cleaning sale.
"Life' is tough. It's even tougher if you're stupid." ~ John Wayne
“Under certain circumstances, urgent circumstances, desperate circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.” —Mark Twain
Aint that the the truth.
On the other hand if you always wanted and are destined to own a brand new 1957 whatchamacllit......IF you were 7 when the 57 was new and only now could you afford and truly enjoy it. With no other way you either want it or not.
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Then there is the very nature of the one "anyone can build", If I..... me....a log home/saw mill/loggin grunt from podunk nowhere can build/assemble his own 1/8" rifle in his spare time on that kind of budget........it's going to be hard to sell to any one that has the initiative to use such a tool.
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I do not think that gun grabbers calm between storms has directly caused a surplus in bolt rifles but it dramatically effects what we sell and what we hoard. I have hung on to barrels, stocks and brass I would normally sell.
I am So done with the 7mm rem mag but the huge volume of pristine brass I have for it dictates a self imposed need to keep a barrel and bullets despite my expectation that they will rot in the closet long before I ever commit an action to them for use.
May not be able to get any volume of good matching magnum brass next july???
Couldn't two julys ago and you never know.
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Boyd's price cut while extreme..... it wipes out the competition, secures there place as the only real provider in that market far and away the leader, willingly takes a punch to expand it's client base even in a down economy and assuming they weather the storm: when they rise again they will do so with a even more dominant presence in that market an even bigger client base.
I am guilty of falling prey to it. I bought a couple really nice stocks for dirt cheep that I never would have at twice the price but after experiencing them would not hesitate to............ sometimes you need to bait an opponent into closing the distance for you so you can use all your remaining energy to lay them out. Brilliant if your strong enough to take the hit that brings them into the firing line.
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Savage's maintenance of the stevens made allot of sense and I suspect a lot of premium 110,12,16 sales originated with the dirt cheep stevens sale years before to someone who at the time was anyones customer.
The diversification to the entire new cheep entry....a bit much as savage market share was finally coming into it's own. But who knows.
15 years ago if you had told me the savage 110 would be my #1 choice in production or custom rifle.......I would have rolled on the ground laughing. Same could be said for bushnell elite optics.
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Brand loyalties have kept remington alive for decades beyond the end of there innovations.
Kept leupold in the top five list even when they have bean surpassed my a dozen or more.
Entirely plausible savage and boyds are rolling with the punches to use a down market "especially in bolt guns" to build a loyalist future.
It's worked before.
Great topic. I'm rarely in the market for used or take off parts these days. It has been my experience that I see the internet gun parts dealer entrepreneur that buys up the hot items and then sells them at a profit plus shipping, again. I cant tell you how often I have seen a factory barrel going for 50-100 less than a custom. I see the same ones all over the firearms forums. Rather than having to mess with all of that. I just go for new parts. I will buy a stock for SSS or Boyds. I will go to Sin or Jim(northland) or Jim(Apache) for my barrels. For other small items I will just buy a rifle from the pawn shop and make a doner out of it.
1. Lower prices
2. Gain market share.
3. Raise prices.
4. Profit.
Step 3.5 is often buying out competitors tooling so they're permanently out of business.
Two things Boyds didn't count on that have bitten them in the butt are Rutland folding after the fire (laminate wood manufacturer) and their new website launch being a complete and total disaster.
As for their competition, I really don't see where they had any other than maybe Revolution Gun Stocks (KSA) or Richard's Micro-Fit, but both are fairly small potatoes in comparison to Boyds and Richard's quality is so sub-standard they really aren't even worth mentioning. Everyone else offering laminate stocks is a low volume, built to order specialty stock maker like SSS, Joel Russo, McGee Competition Stocks, etc. and their mainstay patterns are specifically for competition (benchrest, f-class, palma, sihlouette) which is a market Boyds doesn't offer anything for. The prices are all a good $75 or more higher than Boyds old prices, so again - the benefit of the major price reduction for Boyds completely eludes me.
"Life' is tough. It's even tougher if you're stupid." ~ John Wayne
“Under certain circumstances, urgent circumstances, desperate circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.” —Mark Twain
For my own part in Boyds price reduction:
I shoot prone 99% and do not care for the normal monte carlo type stocks.
The tikka t3 stock falls in that category but is serviceable and essentially free as I already bought it when I bought the gun.
When they came out with there tacticool for tikka t3..... Never in a million years would I spend $200+ to restock those guns as I hardly ever shoot them anymore.
Little did I know how much the stock was dictating that decision not to shoot them much.
A pepper colored laminated tacticool stock with custom length of pull and limbsaver pad.....$120 ..........Why not...... oo ,ah ,mmmm thats nice, better get on for the other.
If next year I pick up a t3 it will get a boyds. If next year boyds wants $225.....yes it's allot, but it's really nice and I already know it changes the whole rifle into something really nice just like I like it..
Sucker............................................ .....yep.
Just silly enough to be happy about it........yep.
There would be tons of parts on here if there was no pay to play! I'm always looking for and selling parts. Don't get me wrong, this site is fine and I'm not complaining. Its just the way it is.
Of course you right. For the sake of volume, there would be more.
I for one have always appreciated the limited access eliminating most of scam garbage that has gone on everywhere else were there are open classifieds but it does have it's down side in limiting volume..
I don't think there would be quite as many parts ads as you think. I'm looking for a bolt head for a build and running ads on 6 different sites hasn't produced a single thing. The 5 other sites are free classifieds. Sites such as LRH and Accurate Shooter don't have any more Savage classifieds than there are here, for the most part. Usually an ad is on all 3 or more. People are just becoming hoarders, waiting to capitalize on the next media fueled tragedy that comes along.
Originally Posted by keeki
Guess it doesn't really matter. If ya cant afford $15, you won't be buying much anyways
Hey now, all my hoarding is purely selfish.
P.S. If you find two bolt heads I'll take the other and hoard it to..... Kidding, What ya after?
LH WSM short action. Unicorn teeth.....
I've got one on backorder at Midway, due in about June.....
One ordered at Numrich listed as 7mm-08, 300 WSM, 338 WM.....who knows which one it will be when it gets here......
And Norm's ordering me one tomorrow from the factory.
I'll probably have three by the end of the week, lol.
And I'll probably hoarde the extras.
Last edited by Hotolds442; 02-01-2015 at 08:57 PM.
Originally Posted by keeki
Guess it doesn't really matter. If ya cant afford $15, you won't be buying much anyways
I also agree that there would be more parts for sale here if guys didn't have to pay to buy and sell them.
Don't get all hopped up now. I understand that it takes time and money to keep the site running.
For what it costs to play here that is hardly worth considering. Free is usually worth exactly what you pay for it...........and there is always the option to start your own website and subsidize it out of your own pocket so that cheapskates like you can "play" free.
since when do we demand that others efforts and hard work be given away free....
There are 3 kinds of people in this world. Those who can do math and those who can't
Cheapskate? Easy now Rooster
I said don't get all hopped up didn't I?
I paid here for years and years, just haven't re-upped this last time
Mr Baker made a very good case for why the market has fallen apart. It just irks me that somebody always wants something for nothing.
There are 3 kinds of people in this world. Those who can do math and those who can't
Settle down guys, no need for name calling and all that over whether or not this is site's going to have a paid membership plan...fairly certain we made that decision 8-9 years ago.
"Life' is tough. It's even tougher if you're stupid." ~ John Wayne
“Under certain circumstances, urgent circumstances, desperate circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.” —Mark Twain
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