Getting the carbon out for accuracy (and barrel life).

[tarheellin]

When you guys are spending the day at the range, or doing load prep., what do you use to efficiently remove the carbon build up between rounds ?

I'm not concerned about the copper that's collected in the rough patches, but the carbon that builds up in the throat area of the high velocity rifles that will cause throat wear, heat build up and premature barrel failure.

Does anyone have a "secret formula" of stuff that will dissolve the carbon without spending tons of time going thru a zillion patches and bore brushes ? What do you use to get the carbon out ?

Thanx, y'all.

Lin.

[LoneWolf]

I use hoppe's #9 and a bore snake. 1 or 2 passes and go.

[sharpshooter]

Don't know where you got the idea that carbon builds up in the throat area. Soot will build up right at the end of the neck portion of the chamber, between the end of the case and the transition to the throat. This can be removed easily with a bore bush and common solvent. Hard carbon fouling is a different story. Hard carbon fouling adheres to the nooks and crannies in the barrel as a result of shooting lots of rounds when the barrel is hot. I've never seen it in the throat area, usually it will be apparent farther down the bore. Hard carbon fouling will give obvious signs such as high pressure, bullets keyholing, and sometimes bullets never reach the target. If you have good vision, you can see it with the naked eye and it looks like orange peel. There is no "easy " way to remove this. Despite claims made by a majority of solvent makers, none of them will remove hard carbon fouling better than GM Top Engine cleaner(no longer made) or Mercury Quicksilver Powertune (same thing in an aerosol). If you have enough accumulation that is giving off the signs, you will wear out several bore brushes soaked with one of the afore mentioned products to get it out. Hard carbon fouling will show up as BROWN on the patches, not black. Once you have the "brown" out, it's a good idea to scrub it out with some JB bore paste.
Hard carbon fouling seems to be more predominate in the smaller calibers such as .17's and 20's.

[yobuck]

Don't know where you got the idea that carbon builds up in the throat area. Soot will build up right at the end of the neck portion of the chamber, between the end of the case and the transition to the throat. This can be removed easily with a bore bush and common solvent. Hard carbon fouling is a different story. Hard carbon fouling adheres to the nooks and crannies in the barrel as a result of shooting lots of rounds when the barrel is hot. I've never seen it in the throat area, usually it will be apparent farther down the bore. Hard carbon fouling will give obvious signs such as high pressure, bullets keyholing, and sometimes bullets never reach the target. If you have good vision, you can see it with the naked eye and it looks like orange peel. There is no "easy " way to remove this. Despite claims made by a majority of solvent makers, none of them will remove hard carbon fouling better than GM Top Engine cleaner(no longer made) or Mercury Quicksilver Powertune (same thing in an aerosol). If you have enough accumulation that is giving off the signs, you will wear out several bore brushes soaked with one of the afore mentioned products to get it out. Hard carbon fouling will show up as BROWN on the patches, not black. Once you have the "brown" out, it's a good idea to scrub it out with some JB bore paste.
Hard carbon fouling seems to be more predominate in the smaller calibers such as .17's and 20's.

Interesting read especially coming from where it does which certainly adds creditability to my mind at least.
The term carbon is tossed around pretty liberaly and even among active shooters ive heard differing opinions.
Ive heard it said a carbon ring referred to as a (donut) can form in the chamber area and affect accuracy.
But from what ive read here its my understanding that its probably soot not carbon.
So whats the best advise on cleaning for average joe hunter/shooter?
Some i know use the if it shoots keep shooting approach and others seemingly wear out the barrel by cleaning it.
Should we be all that concerned about carbon in the first place assuming we try not heating up the barrel?

[sharpshooter]

The only times I had a hard carbon fouling problem was in "hot rod" calibers, coupled with the fact it was usually in a prairie dog town, and compounded by lots of prairie dogs mounting a charge, whereas in all the excitement and adrenalin rush, I lost all common sense and kept shooting till I couldn't hit them anymore.
Other than that, I've never had any problems with what I would call standard or common calibers. The soot that collects at the end of the chamber can be cleaned with a bore brush, preferrably one caliber larger than the bore. A few turns with common solvent will knock it loose. I use a short pistol rod, and finish up with a patch on a loop jag.

[tarheellin]

Thanks for the response Sharp Shooter. And, I resemble yobuck's statement. I'm one of those guys that uses the terms in a "liberal" manner; nothing anywhere near as specific as your understanding and application of the terms... If it's past the chamber and a third of the way down the barrel, that's probably the "throat" area to me. :-0) :-0)

As you describe, I'm likely dealing with the "soot" stage of residue, not hard carbon... Don't shoot them hot, try not to shoot a long string before cleaning. But, I do wish to preclude getting to the "hard carbon" problems.

That's why I asked about what to use to get the carbon out thinking that if I use something aggressive enough to remove carbon, I'll be more efficient at removing the fouling I have, spend less time cleaning, more time shooting.

Thanks, again, for the response and the products that are mentioned.

[yobuck]

But it's ok to miss some just not most right? Maybe even more than some? lol

[LongRange]

Thanks for the response Sharp Shooter. And, I resemble yobuck's statement. I'm one of those guys that uses the terms in a "liberal" manner; nothing anywhere near as specific as your understanding and application of the terms... If it's past the chamber and a third of the way down the barrel, that's probably the "throat" area to me. :-0) :-0)

As you describe, I'm likely dealing with the "soot" stage of residue, not hard carbon... Don't shoot them hot, try not to shoot a long string before cleaning. But, I do wish to preclude getting to the "hard carbon" problems.

That's why I asked about what to use to get the carbon out thinking that if I use something aggressive enough to remove carbon, I'll be more efficient at removing the fouling I have, spend less time cleaning, more time shooting.

Thanks, again, for the response and the products that are mentioned.

With all that said you might want to do a little research on HBN bullet and barrel coating...pretty interesting...im getting ready to start running HBN coated bullets just to see if what ive read and heard is true....i plan to start this weekend and will start a thread when i do.

[Robinhood]

Great feedback sharpshooter. Tonight I purchased a Lucas product to see if it would help clean 260 barrel I suspected of having some hard carbon. If it doesn't work I may try the merc stuff. cant hurt.

[sharpshooter]

If you are going to shoot coated bullets with moly,danzac or hbn, you want to make **** sure that the barrel is absolutely sterile clean before shooting coated bullets. If you have some hard carbon present, it will do bad things in a hurry. I found out the hard way.

[upSLIDEdown]

Just shoot it. :)

But really, I don't clean any of my guns after each outing. Or even every other outing. When I do, I just use Hoppes #9 for generic cleaning (no copper removal).

[LongRange]

Great feedback sharpshooter. Tonight I purchased a Lucas product to see if it would help clean 260 barrel I suspected of having some hard carbon. If it doesn't work I may try the merc stuff. cant hurt.

ive heard...but havent tried...sea foam works very well.

If you are going to shoot coated bullets with moly,danzac or hbn, you want to make **** sure that the barrel is absolutely sterile clean before shooting coated bullets. If you have some hard carbon present, it will do bad things in a hurry. I found out the hard way.

i dont have a bore scope but will make sure that patches are spotless after scrubbing for carbon/soot and copper with bronze brushes and bore foaming. then a little scrubbing with a nylon brush and alcohol to get the cleaners out and then 5 to 10 alcohol soaked patches to make sure its clean and to dry it up a little...i just cleaned to metal about 120 rounds ago so it shouldnt be to bad as the barrel has never really collected much of either.
if you dont mind can you tell me what you learned the hard way so if i run into any issues ill know what to watch for?

[yobuck]

With the price of Savages, why not just shoot he-l out of them and just throw them away when they stop performing well?
Or better yet sell the action to some upstart gunsmith somewhere.

[Luke45]

excessive cleaning will wear a barrel out faster than shooting it!!!

[LongRange]

excessive cleaning will wear a barrel out faster than shooting it!!!

You might find this article interesting if you think cleaning will wear a barrel out faster than shooting....improper cleaning wears a barrel out not excessive cleaning.

http://www.6mmbr.com/borebrushing.html

[yobuck]

Seems to me that it all depends upon who your favorite expert is as to which way you decide is best for you.

[LongRange]

Seems to me that it all depends upon who your favorite expert is as to which way you decide is best for you.

i agree but if you notice there is a trend and that trend is that a clean barrel shoots better than a dirty barrel...some clean every 5 rounds(which i think is over kill)and others about 200 rounds and one claims 4-700 i think...the point is that if cleaned properly and with good tools cleaning does not effect barrel life.

[LoneWolf]

I think every barrel likes whatever system the shooter is happiest with the results. I do a general cleaning after each range session because that's what the Marine Corps taught me to do. However, I don't scrub the bluing off the rifle with overkill like they teach us in boot camp or when we have to turn them back into the armory. If accuracy starts to become unacceptable or inconsistent then I will go a little heavier. The thing about shooting and weapon maintenance is that there is no perfect science. It's whatever works. If you spend more than 5-15min cleaning a bolt action rifle you're probably going over board!

[yobuck]

i agree but if you notice there is a trend and that trend is that a clean barrel shoots better than a dirty barrel...some clean every 5 rounds(which i think is over kill)and others about 200 rounds and one claims 4-700 i think...the point is that if cleaned properly and with good tools cleaning does not effect barrel life.

Well the term (trend) could also be seen to have a similar meaning to the term (consensus).
And if you want to get a different consensus on something, just get a different bunch of people to agree differently on whatever it was.
Climate change for example would be a good example. Followed closly by how to best (or best not) clean your gun. lol

[Luke45]

With the price of Savages, why not just shoot he-l out of them and just throw them away when they stop performing well?
Or better yet sell the action to some upstart gunsmith somewhere.

^this +1

[hombre243]

Thanks for the response Sharp Shooter. And, I resemble yobuck's statement. I'm one of those guys that uses the terms in a "liberal" manner; nothing anywhere near as specific as your understanding and application of the terms... If it's past the chamber and a third of the way down the barrel, that's probably the "throat" area to me. :-0) :-0)

As you describe, I'm likely dealing with the "soot" stage of residue, not hard carbon... Don't shoot them hot, try not to shoot a long string before cleaning. But, I do wish to preclude getting to the "hard carbon" problems.

That's why I asked about what to use to get the carbon out thinking that if I use something aggressive enough to remove carbon, I'll be more efficient at removing the fouling I have, spend less time cleaning, more time shooting.

Thanks, again, for the response and the products that are mentioned.

Quick and easy...get the lead AND "black stuff" out. I use "Kleen Bore" cloth and patches INSIDE the barrel. Not as a wipe down cloth. Here is a link:

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss...+remover+cloth

[LongRange]

Quick and easy...get the lead AND "black stuff" out. I use "Kleen Bore" cloth and patches INSIDE the barrel. Not as a wipe down cloth. Here is a link:

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss...+remover+cloth

if you have lead with copper jacketed bullets you have other problems!!

[hombre243]

if you have lead with copper jacketed bullets you have other problems!!

I have pistols that get a touch of lead at times. I don't shoot lead bullets from my rifles...but may start casting for the 30-30...almost all I shoot from my pistols is lead cast bullets. But lead is never easy to clean out. Kleen Bore easily removes the carbon or soot, or whatever that black residue is and that is what the OP needs.

[GaCop]

ive heard...but havent tried...sea foam works very well.



i dont have a bore scope but will make sure that patches are spotless after scrubbing for carbon/soot and copper with bronze brushes and bore foaming. then a little scrubbing with a nylon brush and alcohol to get the cleaners out and then 5 to 10 alcohol soaked patches to make sure its clean and to dry it up a little...i just cleaned to metal about 120 rounds ago so it shouldnt be to bad as the barrel has never really collected much of either.
if you dont mind can you tell me what you learned the hard way so if i run into any issues ill know what to watch for?

That's the first I've heard about using "Sea Foam", gotta give that a try. I use the stuff in my F-150 all the time to help keep the injectors clean.

[wbm]

Sometimes nothing is more informative than hands on testimony. Jerry's cleaning regimen raised a few eyebrows for sure.

Down the page under Tierney's Cleaning Methods


http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek053.html