What makes a rifle accurate?

**foxx** · 11-11-2014, 01:39 PM

My apologies to Long Range. I was too quick to get my dander up. Every post here is well-intended. I see that, now.

**olddav** · 11-11-2014, 02:21 PM

Icker96
It appears through your post you have a pretty good grip on whats going on with your rifle and what it is. Seeing that your shooting 68GR HPBT I again assume that your barrel is at least a 1:9 twist. The only advice I can offer is to try flat base bullets if you are shooting 100 yards. My limited experience has shown me that boat tail bullets do not shoot well at 100 yards although I'm sure some would disagree. Oh yea, swapping stocks is a good idea and you might as well pillar bed it while your at it.

**jonbearman** · 11-11-2014, 02:37 PM

Have a known really good shooter shoot your rifle after you and see if the results vary. If they do then it is you however if you get the same result from both of you start to look at the bedding first and flex of it. If I were changing anything right off with the crummy Tupperware stocks, that would go first. Then a new stock must be fitted and bedded with the barrel channel opened up to free float the barrel. Then I would seriously put good glass on it because the cheapo's will make you look like a bad shooter. The new savage's have accu-trigger's so I would hesitate dumping that quite yet. I would buy a good front rest and the standard is a Hart cast Iron based type with a fixed top for now. Then call protector and see which rear bag to use and have it filled by them with heavy sand. When shooting off a rest unscrew the sling studs while shooting off the bench. If the gun sticks and jumps in the rest, use stock tape which will let your gun recoil instead of jumping. Use decent ammo and stay away form Russian junk. Spend time set up in your living room with good snap caps and practice trigger control. Have someone video you while shooting as it will expose your weaknesses so you can adjust your style accordingly. Above all stay safe, no cleaning rods left in the bore etc.

**barrel-nut** · 11-11-2014, 03:15 PM

Icker, sounds like you have a good handle on what's going on and what to do about it.
Lots of good solid advice in the last several posts too. Good luck

**icker96** · 11-11-2014, 05:14 PM

olddav - that is not the first time I have heard this about boat tail bullets. Who makes a flat tail bullet in 68-70 grain? I assume I should not go much heavier with a 1:9 twist. I have tried Nosler and Hornady, and both are BT, and the SMK are BT.

**foxx** · 11-11-2014, 05:59 PM

Originally Posted by icker96

olddav - that is not the first time I have heard this about boat tail bullets. Who makes a flat tail bullet in 68-70 grain? I assume I should not go much heavier with a 1:9 twist. I have tried Nosler and Hornady, and both are BT, and the SMK are BT.

No one. It's counter-productive. You can find 50-55 grain flat base bullets, (they are superior for 100 yards) but not 68-70. 68-70 is for long range, they would not bother making them flat based. TO test your rifle at short range (out to 200) use 50, 53 or 55 gr flat base bullets. They are cheaper (less materials and easier to make) and inherently more accurate at that range. (they also create slightly less recoil, as if it matters in .223)

LongRange · 11-11-2014, 06:07 PM

Originally Posted by foxx

My apologies to Long Range. I was too quick to get my dander up. Every post here is well-intended. I see that, now.

no apologies needed foxx we all cant agree on everything and trying to debate through text or typing its very easy to take a post wrong ive done the same but we are all here for the same reason...to learn and to try to help others.

**olddav** · 11-11-2014, 06:12 PM

I think you've got me there, I looked around a short while and could not find any flat base bullets in the weight you spoke of. I guess the only option now is to shoot at 200+ yards. Guess I should of thought of that before I spoke up!
I think the heaviest flat base bullet I found was 63 grain (Sierra #1370).

Nandy · 11-11-2014, 06:22 PM

Icker96, if you are shooting 1/2 moa at 100 yds with a 223 and also reloading I think you are in the right track. It would seem to me that you have some good basics to accomplish that shooting. Im sure with better equipment you can do better. The way I see it, I want a rifle/load that can shoot better than I am so I am confident that whatever if happening downrange is due to my shooting and not my equipment. The questioning of if that "flier"that open up the group was due to equipment or ones shooting skill could drive some shooters (me, me, me!!!) crazy.

LongRange · 11-11-2014, 06:23 PM

Originally Posted by icker96

Given - I need to practice and work on becoming a better shooter. I accept that and look forward to doing that. But there are times when I feel VERY confident that I just pulled off 2 good, solid shots and they are farther apart than I feel they should be. Could I be doing something that I don't realize, of course, but I get better groups shooting my buddy's E. A. Brown higher quality rifle than I do shooting mine. That tells me there is room for improvement on the rifle itself.

i have a load I like with XBR 8208 and Hornady 68 gr bthp. I am still working on seating depth and fine-tuning that load. I am also working on developing a load with RamTac and the Hornady 68 gr bthp.

As as far as the rifle, I did not want to sink money into a lost cause, which was the reason for this post. From what I understand, I can make this rifle shoot better, independent of my skill level, with some upgrades. After reading this, I went and played with my rifle, and it takes VERY LITTLE effort to push the stock into the barrel, so I would bet that happens a lot when I put the gun on the bags. Seems this would completely defeat the purpose of having a free floated barrel. I think I will start with a new stock, and soon will get it pillared and bedded. After I see what that does, I will go from there.

in the meantime, I will continue to work on technique and loads, which both seem to be never ending quests for improvement, which is a big part of why this is so fun.

Thanks all for the great advice, your thoughts, and please continue the debates. No one has all the right answers, and sharing knowledge, whether you are giving or receiving, is also part of the fun. Pretty sure you can read through most of the replies on this post and find something to make you think a little bit, whether you agree with it or not, and that is a good thing.

if you are confident in your technique then as someone said have a good shooter shoot your riffle...or better yet have a good shooter watch YOU shoot your riffle. if he sees no problems or only minor problems then id say start up grading you riffle.

**barrel-nut** · 11-11-2014, 06:32 PM

I'd give these a shot. Should work well for 100-200.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/739...100#reviewHead

**olddav** · 11-11-2014, 10:04 PM

I don't know if they are any good or not but Speer #1053 is a 70GR sp flat base bullet.

**BillPa** · 11-12-2014, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by LongRange

The shooter is 90%....you can put the best shooter behind the worst riffle and he will out shoot an average shooter behind the best rifle

I'm living proof of that statement. If I really want to see how accurate my rifles really are I have a long time friend shoot them, he'll out shoot me with my own rifles ten days to Sunday 99.9% of the time. The man has ice water (Coors Lite?) running through his veins.

I asked Bob Pease (RIP) one time what the secrete to accuracy is. "Consistency. It doesn't matter if you do it wrong, just do it wrong the same way every time"

Bill

**barrel-nut** · 11-12-2014, 03:25 PM

Oh boy... I thought this had died down. Lol
BillPa, first off I enjoyed your story, and I have friends like that too. But what your story illustrates, and where it differs from the ridiculous quote above it, is that you have a good shooter (you) being outshot by a better shooter (your friend) using THE SAME EQUIPMENT (your rifle in this case). And I'd bet my hat that you're talking about a matter of tenths of an inch at 100 yds, which admittedly can be a huge difference if you're talking .5 inch to, say, .2 inch. That is an example of an excellent shooter, taking a good rifle to the limits of the rifle's capability, which is something a good shooter can do using a GOOD rifle. Using good technique, slowing down his pulse, reading the wind, squeezing the secret chicken foot, whatever.. He will outshoot lesser shooters virtually every time using SIMILAR equipment.
But that's not what the quote in question says. It says to give him the WORST rifle, and he'll beat you using your BEST rifle. Bill, I believe that if you gave your friend a BAD rifle (as in WORST in the quote above), which to me is a 2-3 MOA rifle like a couple of the stinkers in my safe, and you reshoot that match with you using your best rifle, you would probably beat him 90% of the time. For him to beat you at all, using a known bad rifle, would by definition have to be just luck, because the equipment itself is not capable of such accuracy as is needed. There's nothing a good shooter can do to physically transform the "worst" rifle into the "best" rifle.
I do acknowledge that it's all a question of degrees of "best" or "worse", as in a good shooter using a .3 MOA rifle, will very likely beat an average shooter using a .2 MOA rifle, most of the time.
I'm sorry if I'm ruffling anybody's feathers here, or maybe making myself look like an arse. That's not my intent. I'm just bothered by some of the hyperbole that gets thrown around on the Internet so often that it eventually becomes accepted as gospel truth, without those reading it even closely examining it, and how dare anyone even question such a thing. I just felt the need to try, at least, to shoot down this particular canard because I think it's very misleading to new shooters such as the OP.

**foxx** · 11-12-2014, 03:57 PM

LOL
Yep, I am still with barrel-nut, and for the first time I disagree with BillPA. :)

It is true that CONSISTENCY is the key to shooting an ACCURATE rifle well, but all the consistency in the world won't make an inaccurate rifle shoot well.

I remember when I first started shooting and was loaned a Springfield rifle-musket for a fun competition. I asked the owner how well it shot, he said, "Better than you." Well, I got his point right away and that was good enough for me. Ever since then, that answer is still good enough for me. If the gun's accuracy exceeds my skill level, I am happy with it. But if I am better than the rifle, I know it will only teach me bad habits and frustrate me while I try to learn how to shoot. (I will always be learning how to shoot, no matter how good I get.) Simple, common sense.

Still, somehow, I think everyone here agrees, it's just a matter of determining how good the rifle is to start with.

**barrel-nut** · 11-12-2014, 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by foxx

It is true that CONSISTENCY is the key to shooting an ACCURATE rifle well, but all the consistency in the world won't make an inaccurate rifle shoot well.

Foxx, you just summed up in one sentence what I have been struggling to convey with all of my rambling above. Well done sir.
ETA: it pained me, too, to disagree with Bill, and it was the first time for me too. Bill is one of the most-respected members here and I certainly mean no disrespect, just a slight disagreement.

**chukarmandoo** · 11-12-2014, 04:39 PM

All I'll say about this is- if a person has any doubts about the accuracy of his rifle and is himself doing something wrong, he will never over come his inability to be a marksman. No matter how much he works at it. But if it is proven to him that the rifle is a top performer, then he will learn to shoot and become proficient at it. That's why we used to think 1.5 MOA was good and 1 MOA was excellent! Today .5 MOA is good. .25 is excellent for the average shooter. The best for me is .3's and that will be the best I'll ever shoot and I think its me now and not the rifle.

LongRange · 11-12-2014, 05:57 PM

Originally Posted by barrel-nut

Oh boy... I thought this had died down. Lol
BillPa, first off I enjoyed your story, and I have friends like that too. But what your story illustrates, and where it differs from the ridiculous quote above it, is that you have a good shooter (you) being outshot by a better shooter (your friend) using THE SAME EQUIPMENT (your rifle in this case). And I'd bet my hat that you're talking about a matter of tenths of an inch at 100 yds, which admittedly can be a huge difference if you're talking .5 inch to, say, .2 inch. That is an example of an excellent shooter, taking a good rifle to the limits of the rifle's capability, which is something a good shooter can do using a GOOD rifle. Using good technique, slowing down his pulse, reading the wind, squeezing the secret chicken foot, whatever.. He will outshoot lesser shooters virtually every time using SIMILAR equipment.
But that's not what the quote in question says. It says to give him the WORST rifle, and he'll beat you using your BEST rifle. Bill, I believe that if you gave your friend a BAD rifle (as in WORST in the quote above), which to me is a 2-3 MOA rifle like a couple of the stinkers in my safe, and you reshoot that match with you using your best rifle, you would probably beat him 90% of the time. For him to beat you at all, using a known bad rifle, would by definition have to be just luck, because the equipment itself is not capable of such accuracy as is needed. There's nothing a good shooter can do to physically transform the "worst" rifle into the "best" rifle.
I do acknowledge that it's all a question of degrees of "best" or "worse", as in a good shooter using a .3 MOA rifle, will very likely beat an average shooter using a .2 MOA rifle, most of the time.
I'm sorry if I'm ruffling anybody's feathers here, or maybe making myself look like an arse. That's not my intent. I'm just bothered by some of the hyperbole that gets thrown around on the Internet so often that it eventually becomes accepted as gospel truth, without those reading it even closely examining it, and how dare anyone even question such a thing. I just felt the need to try, at least, to shoot down this particular canard because I think it's very misleading to new shooters such as the OP.

first let me say your not ruffling my feathers...but you are pushing this right to the limit with a word game.....i admit i did use the word "WORST"and it was not the best word to use. but will also say you know im not talking about a 3MOA riffle YOUR the one that brought that into this NOT me...personally if i had i 3moa riffle id toss everything but the action and start over. im not here to argue or play word games im here to learn and to try and help others so maybe we should both let this go or continue it it a new thread and stop posting our differences in his thread.

**barrel-nut** · 11-12-2014, 06:09 PM

Words are the medium we're dealing in here, no?
I'd agree with this statement:
A good shooter will outshoot an average shooter 90% of the time, using similar rifles.
That's it, I'm done.

LongRange · 11-12-2014, 06:12 PM

Originally Posted by barrel-nut

Words are the medium we're dealing in here, no?
I'd agree with this statement:
A good shooter will outshoot an average shooter 90% of the time, using similar rifles.
That's it, I'm done.

LMAO...yes and im done to.

**barrel-nut** · 11-12-2014, 07:22 PM

:-)
Hey icker, next time ask us something non-controversial, like Ford vs. Chevy? Or, Cowboys- really America's team?? Lol. Best of luck to you with your new rifle, and becoming a great shooter. Keep us informed on your progress.

**BillPa** · 11-12-2014, 08:33 PM

Originally Posted by barrel-nut

A good shooter will outshoot an average shooter 90% of the time, using similar rifles.
That's it, I'm done.

Similar riffles? Heck even the same old rusty club! The next time Tom ,my "Proof Shooter" , goes along I'm gonna give'm a viscous kick in the jewels. We'll see can out do who then!

**barrel-nut** · 11-12-2014, 08:36 PM

Lol. A handicap, if you will.

**eddiesindian** · 11-13-2014, 01:10 AM

Originally Posted by icker96

Given - I need to practice and work on becoming a better shooter. I accept that and look forward to doing that. But there are times when I feel VERY confident that I just pulled off 2 good, solid shots and they are farther apart than I feel they should be. Could I be doing something that I don't realize, of course, but I get better groups shooting my buddy's E. A. Brown higher quality rifle than I do shooting mine. That tells me there is room for improvement on the rifle itself.

i have a load I like with XBR 8208 and Hornady 68 gr bthp. I am still working on seating depth and fine-tuning that load. I am also working on developing a load with RamTac and the Hornady 68 gr bthp.

As as far as the rifle, I did not want to sink money into a lost cause, which was the reason for this post. From what I understand, I can make this rifle shoot better, independent of my skill level, with some upgrades. After reading this, I went and played with my rifle, and it takes VERY LITTLE effort to push the stock into the barrel, so I would bet that happens a lot when I put the gun on the bags. Seems this would completely defeat the purpose of having a free floated barrel. I think I will start with a new stock, and soon will get it pillared and bedded. After I see what that does, I will go from there.

in the meantime, I will continue to work on technique and loads, which both seem to be never ending quests for improvement, which is a big part of why this is so fun.

Thanks all for the great advice, your thoughts, and please continue the debates. No one has all the right answers, and sharing knowledge, whether you are giving or receiving, is also part of the fun. Pretty sure you can read through most of the replies on this post and find something to make you think a little bit, whether you agree with it or not, and that is a good thing.

roger that: Better stock with aluminum bedding block/piller is a must. Id do this before any future load development.
Looks like you dun figured it out.
Good Luck.

**icker96** · 11-15-2014, 07:36 PM

I guess the rifle and I both have potential. I measure these at .726 for an 8 shot group, and 1.138 for a 10 shot group. Please let me know if my technique for measuring groups is wrong.