Sounds like a weird question, but I am new to rifle shooting and bought a Savage 11/111 Trophy Hunter in 223 thinking I just wanted to have fun putting holes in paper and plinking. Turns out I have gotten into reloading, and have really enjoyed the shooting and the quest for the 1 hole groups. I am still playing with developing the right load and have managed sub MOA groups, but I am having a hard time getting under 1/2 inch at 100 yards.
Is it possible to get sub 1/2 MOA from a factory rifle? If I get a new barrel will it completely improve my accuracy? or does the accuracy come from the action itself? if it comes from the action, is a factory mass produced action machined well enough to be really accurate? I would hate to buy a new barrel and find out that the action is not machined well enough to be consistent, so I can never get the accuracy I want.
Ultimate question, can I make this rifle shoot the way I want, or do I need to start all over? If I can make it shoot the way I want, how? If I need to start all over, suggestions?
You may be able to get under 1/2 moa with a factory hunting rifle.
Where does accuracy come from, I would say it's the barrel, action, stock, trigger, scope base, scope rings, scope and bullets, (brass, primers, powder, projectiles and seating depth +). I'm sure I missed something.
You have to ask, how far am I willing to go to achive my goal?
all that, plus the rest and shooter.
If trigger is light enough, with little creep, you remove some shooter/form error. Inexpensive place to start improving your rig. An aftermarket barrel may or may not be an improvement. Impossible to tell without trying. I would not start there. The action is good as is. It can be made smoother and easier to cock (lighter bolt lift), but not more accurate. It's likely the stock could be improved (bedding can improve a wooden stock if it is swelling in humidity and temp changes). If the forearm flexes easily and therefore is touching the barrel when you set it on the rest, it could be improved as well. Ideally, the barrel should be free-floated no matter how you hold it. Scope mounts and rings need to be sturdy enough to not move under recoil. Scope needs to be clear enough to see well and reticles not shift or change when magnification is changed. ALso, internal mechanism should be solid and consistent to allow you to move the reticle and return to "zero". (5 clicks up and 4 clicks right will move it the same every time and you can return with 5 clicks down and 4 clicks left). Handloading is a whole other bag of worms.
Last edited by foxx; 11-10-2014 at 08:55 PM.
The shooter is 90%....you can put the best shooter behind the worst riffle and he will out shoot an average shooter behind the best riffle.
All the things above mean nothing if you jerk the trigger, flinch when shooting, close your eyes when pulling the trigger ect ect.Learn proper technic and your riffle will be accurate.
True, but the question is about the rifle. What can be done to improve the rifle. Shooting techniques and skills are a different issue.Originally Posted by LongRange
Practice, Practice, Practice
Absolutely.
Rifle improvements are the final 10%, but it gets exponentially more expensive as you try to get closer and closer to 100% shooting perfection.
Practice, observe closely which techniques work for you and which don't, and save up for the rifle upgrades. You'll make better upgrade purchase decisions as you go, so don't start upgrading too early.
For your 1/2 MOA groups and handloading - practice your technique with consistent ammo, don't try to work on technique and test different loads at the same time.
"The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted." - James Madison
Did you read the part where he said hes new to riffle shooting? So should he go out and buy the best of everything then learn to shoot? Or should he learn to shoot then up grade? The best up grade to a new shooter is to learn how to eliminate shooter error.
So sounds like the correct answer is be patient, have fun and practice. I will hold up on major upgrades for awhile.
The fine people at Savage Arms
No, I did not suggest he go out and buy the best of everything. I gave general answers to a question of what makes a Savage rifle an accurate rifle. It is perfectly appropriate to encourage a new shooter to learn proper technique and discipline, but we don't need to be arrogant and snippy about it. His was a perfectly appropriate and legitimate question. Answer it without trying to belittle him.
It's possible to replace, upgrade, or improve every single part on that rifle. And it will probably shoot a bit better. But deep pockets and shortcuts only get you so far.
When it's time to upgrade, the first thing I would do is:
- Replace/Upgrade the stock.
- Work up the best hand load you can.
And you can realize more of your own potential with:
- Better trigger
- Better optics
Then keep practicing until that barrel is toast. When it's time to replace the barrel, you can get a really nice one and be consistently and confidently making groups in one ragged hole.
"The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted." - James Madison
I agree that the shooter is 90% and maybe more than that.
With that in mind........it has bean my experience that the shooters interaction or lack of with the rifle may matter more than all the other issues combined.
The stock, trigger and optic are all communication devises between shooter and the rifle.
A solid stock with the proper length of pull and cheek hight can go along ways. Same with a good trigger. Optics and mount will make or break a system hands down................These all allow you to tell the rifle what to do with out disrupting it's efforts.
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Then seating depth of the ammunition will be the most critical modification to allow the system to do what it can mechanically.
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I could say I love a v-block as much as bedding for the action or that there should be daylight around the barrel and none of that dollar bill crap. I could point out I shoot prone allot so a stock with a vertical grip and square heal are critical for me or that 24x magnification showed me how bad I shake and why and therefor what to do about it...............but....................
.
As much as it pains me to say it: In my little circle of friends and family we have some incredibly accurate rifles. Not talking about just customs, not even nice ones but old beet up, previously neglected and abused rem700 and win70 (the cheap stuff), an off the rack tikka, some factory savage all shooting under 1/2" and full custom savages all shooting under 1/4".
Leading me to believe fit (communication) between shooter and rifle..... and then fit between ammo and chamber are the most important factors.
icker96
Have you pillar bedded the rifle? Might help.
What trigger do you have (Accutrigger, 3 screw, etc).
What powder are you using?
What bullet are you using?
seeing as how your new to shooting~reloading and have become interested in the challenge of accuracy, Id say keep working on load development. theres lots of variables to know and understand but i have a feeling your starting to understand them.
IMO....dont invest on upgrades.
Keep what youve got and keep picking at it. Lots of books to read up on. Lots of info out there. Learn and understand what you have at hand. ( twist rate~barrel lenght~seating depth~projectile,s) the list goes on and on.
I d just assume leave this 1-9 twist 22" hunting rifle alone as is and learn what its actual capabilties are which I think youve already done?
One things for sure.....................ya dun asked a loaded question for sure lolololololo
Life is tuff.....its even tuffer when your stupid
{John Wayne}
1. Barrel
2. Bullets
3. Bedding
All else is just the interface between the shooter and rifle, as d.id already covered. Trigger, stock, optics, action, all are but means for the shooter to steer the barrel, and ultimately, the bullet. But the barrel and the bullet are where it's at. If these two items are not compatible, and of good quality, then nothing else is gonna really matter. A factory barrel can be very good, but many are not. Generally, aftermarket barrels are of better quality. Good bedding allows repeatability with the whole system.
I disagree with all the emphasis on the shooter. The question was "what makes a rifle accurate?", not "how do I shoot a rifle accurately?". Any rifle is only capable of a certain degree of accuracy with a given load, and there's nothing any shooter in the world can do to magically improve on that, without making changes to the rifle.( ETA, or the load.) Either a given rifle will shoot MOA, or 1/2moa, or 2 or 3 MOA etc. Once you reach the limits of the equipment, the shooter can do nothing to improve on that. It can certainly be shot worse at that point, but not any better. I disagree with the comment about putting the best shooter behind the worst rifle and he will outshoot an average shooter with the best rifle. This is nonsense. I consider myself an average shooter. Give me a rifle capable of 1/4 MOA and give Tony Boyer an old beater that can't break 3 MOA, and I'll smoke him every time. Not to say that technique is unimportant, or that shooting is not a skill that can be highly refined; that, too, would be nonsense. But all equipment has limitations, and no matter how great our skills, or how inflated our egos, we cannot ignore that fact. Shooting a good rifle accurately is really not that difficult. I'm not talking about extreme, competition-level accuracy, but the 1/2 MOA that the OP desires. Case in point: a few years ago I was at the range, shooting my stock-except-for-the-stock, model 10 FP. I noticed a young man, maybe 15 yrs old, watching me from a short distance away. He seemed very interested. I asked if he would like to shoot, and he enthusiastically said yes. After securing permission from his parent, who was busily making noise over on the pistol range, I sat down with this kid to determine his level of experience. Turns out he had never fired a centerfire rifle before. No problem. I gave him a brief talk about safety and rifle shooting basics, and he fired a .308 for the first time, at 100 yds. About twenty minutes later, after having all of about twenty rounds' worth of "experience", he was breaking clay pigeons placed on the 600 yd. backstop, probably two of every three attempts. That's roughly 2/3 MOA at 600 yds, 2/3 of the time. That wouldn't have happened with a rifle that shoots a 12" group at 600 yds. And I seriously doubt, that any shooter could take that particular rifle that he was using, and do much better than 1/2 MOA with it. Maybe .4 MOA. Yes, the shooter matters, but the inherent accuracy of the rifle itself is paramount, and improvements due to technique are incremental, assuming a basic level of competency.
So to the OP, if you are shooting a Trophy Hunter at sub-MOA, but desire sub-1/2 MOA, I'd say you are already probably pretty close to the limits of the rifle, but there still may be room for improvement. Will your rifle ever shoot "one-hole groups" as-is? Probably not. 1/2"? Very possible. But if you want much better than that, you will probably be looking at improvements to the rifle. That being said, there's certainly nothing wrong with practice, especially carefully thought-out practice.
Put me in Barrel-nut's camp.
and I will shut up, though have more trouble doing that than I do shooting 1/2 MOA! :)
You and me, both, foxx!! Lol
Barrel-nut I agree with you up to a point.Shooter technigue does count, proper form is essential.
My first build was a total factory build, mod. 12 action VLP factory barrel, Mako shark stock, with the precision lug. No bedding but it does have pillars factory installed. Head spaced right at 0.002 and always shot with 60 gr. Sierra varmiters set right at 2.221 ALWAYS, and it is boring to shoot. Very seldom over 1/4" at 100 5 shot. Of course my bench set up cost almost as much as the rifle, and the benches are concrete and dead nuts level. Scope is a Mueller 6-25 mounted with Leupold bases and rings and the accu-trigger is set right at 1.5 lbs.. Put a different shooter behind it and the groups will open up(already have done it).
Now on to the OP's question, one thing I did not see mentioned is the fact you have a mod 11 which has a sporter barrel so while shooting shoot 2-3 shots and let cool then try 2 more. You state you reload so here is where the fun begins, you need to find the bullet, powder , length the gun likes period nothing else will matter as far as the rifle matters. Shoot off a good steady rest with a rear bag and learn breath and trigger control and I believe your rifle is capable of doing what you seek to do, maybe not every time but it should do it.
I would give you my load but all rifles are different and what works in mine probably won't work in yours.Don't through your money away until you get yours as good as you can, then have fun changing things one at a time.
P.S. I also have a 20"( bull barrel) law enforcement model that will shoot in the .3's with almost an identical load.
FROGGY
See profile for fire arms
Do it today there maybe no tomorrow
With any rifle the six points of accuracy are, ammo, ammo, ammo, trigger, glass, operator.
first off im not being snippy arrogant or belittling anyone just giving a straight answer to a question,and pointing out the fact that he is new and should eliminate all or most shooter error before up grading because whats the point of adding a new barrel if you have shooter error? it will not make the riffle shoot any better if he has not worked on his technique.
i agree with a lot of what you say and disagree with a lot as well...first off there are not a whole lot of factory riffles that wont shoot 1/4 to 1/2 moa so we are not talking about 3moa riffles.The question was "what makes a rifle accurate?", not "how do I shoot a rifle accurately?" your right but i dont care what riflle you put a shooter behind if he has bad habbits it WILL NOT be accurate!! all im saying is a new shooter needs to eliminate shooter error or all the up grades will make no difference in his shooting.
i know several guys with high end customs that cant shoot them because they never worked on their technique they just assume that a custom riffle will make them a better shot.
Rjt, please don't misunderstand my position. I never meant to imply that shooter technique and proper form didn't matter. They certainly do. But what I was trying to imply, is that the OP may be very close to being limited by the capabilities of his rifle, not so much his own. Of course, no one knows that but him, and it's up to him to determine that. But the reality is, that a Trophy Hunter, sporter barrel rifle is much more likely to be a 3/4 MOA+ than a sub-1/2 MOA rifle. That seems to be what he's after. Again, he's the only one who will ultimately learn what the limits of his particular rifle, and abilities, are. I agree with you wholeheartedly about the importance of using a good quality rest and bags, breath and trigger control, etc. But I guess the crux of what I'm trying to get across, is that if a new shooter desires to shoot groups under 1/2" consistently, which is certainly achievable for the vast majority of shooters with proper technique and practice, load, etc., that that goal is much easier to achieve if you're starting with a rifle that will almost certainly do so, than if you're starting with a rifle that may only marginally get close to that goal under ideal conditions. In a nutshell, it's much much easier to learn to shoot sub-half MOA with a true sub half-MOA rifle, than with one that may only occasionally achieve that goal. To the OP, I'm saying all this certainly not to discourage you in any way, but only to try to keep you from getting frustrated if, and only IF, you can't reach your stated goal with the equipment you have. At that point, if you're sure you've been doing everything else correctly, and exhausted all reasonable load development, then and only then it may be time to consider upgrades. The first thing I personally would spend money on in that case is a high quality barrel (which will probably also necessitate a new stock). These two upgrades in my opinion are the best place to start once the decision to upgrade has been made.
Given - I need to practice and work on becoming a better shooter. I accept that and look forward to doing that. But there are times when I feel VERY confident that I just pulled off 2 good, solid shots and they are farther apart than I feel they should be. Could I be doing something that I don't realize, of course, but I get better groups shooting my buddy's E. A. Brown higher quality rifle than I do shooting mine. That tells me there is room for improvement on the rifle itself.
i have a load I like with XBR 8208 and Hornady 68 gr bthp. I am still working on seating depth and fine-tuning that load. I am also working on developing a load with RamTac and the Hornady 68 gr bthp.
As as far as the rifle, I did not want to sink money into a lost cause, which was the reason for this post. From what I understand, I can make this rifle shoot better, independent of my skill level, with some upgrades. After reading this, I went and played with my rifle, and it takes VERY LITTLE effort to push the stock into the barrel, so I would bet that happens a lot when I put the gun on the bags. Seems this would completely defeat the purpose of having a free floated barrel. I think I will start with a new stock, and soon will get it pillared and bedded. After I see what that does, I will go from there.
in the meantime, I will continue to work on technique and loads, which both seem to be never ending quests for improvement, which is a big part of why this is so fun.
Thanks all for the great advice, your thoughts, and please continue the debates. No one has all the right answers, and sharing knowledge, whether you are giving or receiving, is also part of the fun. Pretty sure you can read through most of the replies on this post and find something to make you think a little bit, whether you agree with it or not, and that is a good thing.
All else being equal. Barrels. Barrels are Buddhists and they thrive on good harmonics, good vibrations and balance. The best stock, trigger, receiver and shooter become moot if the barrel ain't up to it.
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