Hey Gang,
Let's first say, I HATE MAGNUMS. The noise, my poor shoulder, the pain to reload... So I prefer not to shoot them.
I own a model 11 FCNS in .308 with a Zeiss 3.5-10x50 chambered in .308win. My go to load is a Barnes TTSX 150gr over a max loading of WW748. Chrono gives me a 5 shot average of 2944fps.
Do you think this is enough for an elk and LESS than 200?
The only other rifle I have capable is a .270 Savage 114.
What think ye about this combo for Elk in Oregon?
-SRS
You should be good to go with some margin. The 150 gr TTSX won't kick as much as heavier bullets, so you can be more sure of placing your shot where you want it.
You can go as light as 100 - 125 gr with lead-free bullets, so your .270 Win would also be doable.
For background try this link: Ideal Bullet Weight
Hey,
I am confident in my shooting out to 250 yards. I don't want to poke anything with a .308 that far anyways. I prefer to get close. Considering all of my deer have been <50 yard shots, the .308 has been a bit overkill. But I am a huge fan of Barnes bullets, so I pick them for their good penetration and awesome accuracy.
Thanks!
Those TTSXs are awesome in any caliber.
Dean
RUMs are like woman in Stiletto heals, you know they are going to put you in the poor house, but that has never stopped anyone from pursuing them.
I have only taken game with them in .308win, but I load them for .243, .270, and .404Jeffery. They have really hit the mark in the lead free bullet market. Even though I don't live near the condor zone, I can't help but like their products for the lead free AND the superior ballistic/hunting capabilities. I try to turn my friends on to them at every possible opportunity, so far with positive results.
--SRS
Plenty of bullet and cartridge out to 300yds.
There are 3 kinds of people in this world. Those who can do math and those who can't
One thing for sure they are not cheap, but I guess they are worth it.
Dean
RUMs are like woman in Stiletto heals, you know they are going to put you in the poor house, but that has never stopped anyone from pursuing them.
west side elk or east side elk? ive seen alot of Oregon Roosevelt elk die (i grew up in W. oregon) from anything from a 243 to a 300 wm at the high end.Originally Posted by sageratslayer
your 308 or 270 would both work, that TSX will do a better job at penetrating the shoulder than most bullets, but would also do less damage if you "bow shot" the elk so id aim for the double shoulder shot. a big 1000+ lb roosevelt will rarely dropp instantly like a deer so just keep shooting untill its down or out of sight becasue they are not fun to pack out if they run 300 yards down a canyon
Hey Luke45
I am in Southern Oregon, so the quarry is Cascade elk. I hunt outside Crater Lake, and the timber is thick enough that shots are rarely over 100 yards. I figured that a .308 would be fine for hunting down here. My hunting partners all use 300winmag or 300wsm. They about jumped out of the truck when I pulled up with a "pea-shooter". But both of them complain about taking their ultra-light weight rifles out to the range to sight in... meanwhile I shoot my .308 year around (300 rounds a year). I guess I'll have to out shoot them to prove them wrong. Magnumitus is rampant in camp.
--SRS
You can easily get those 150s humming at over 3000 FPS, out of a 308 with no pressure signs that should leave plenty of energy down range.
Dean
RUMs are like woman in Stiletto heals, you know they are going to put you in the poor house, but that has never stopped anyone from pursuing them.
nice, my parents are from roseberg and winston down by there. my grandpa has killed alot of elk in that area, and he used an open sighted 20"barrel 308
while the 308 may not be the best hottest caliber in the world, it sure isn't a pea shooter! at the ranges your talking about it should be more than enough, id id bet money you will have better shot placement than your friends who are afraid to practice with thiers.
I'd bet money, that if you shoot an elk at 200 or less, you WON'T FIND THE BULLET. A friend and gun shop owner, shot an elk at 300yds with his 308, and Barnes 165gr TSX. Hit it in both shoulders, and never recovered the bullet. Total pass through. I've shot deer with the Barnes TSX and TTSX and with the Nosler lead free bullet, and prefer the Barnes'. If you keep in mind the TTSX has a min opening velocity of about 2000FPS and the TSX is about 2100FPS, then keeps your shots in range to keep it well above those speeds and you're good to go.
You'll find placement will be more critical than uber magnumitus. At least you won't be cringing when you pull the trigger.
Hey, I'm no wimp when it comes to recoil, I've pushed many 400gr bullets over 2000 FPS with my 45-70. It's not fun, but can be done. That said, I have all sorts of pads on my 30-06 to soften recoil. My thoughts are that the less concerned I am with kick, the more I focus on crosshairs.
I treat shots at deer, from my '06 like I do shots at ground squirrels from my 22LR. Aim and squeeze. That's the advantage of NON magnums. Good luck, and post pics.
If you want a low-recoiling cartridge that is good up to at least Elk, look at the 6.5 caliber, starting with the 6.5 Grendel. The Grendel shows recoil levels similar to, and sometimes less than, those of the .243 Winchester for the same weight rifle. It also works well in bolt-action and single-shot rifles in addition to the AR15 platform. The Creedmoor and 260 Rem add range to the already good for 300-400 yards one can get with the Grendel.
On the other hand, the .308 Winchester will do very well with 110 grain all copper hunting bullets along with 150gr-class bonded and partitions.
Loading that 110 gr bullet so that it retains 2100+ fps at 300 yards should give one a light-recoiling load (~3050 fps at the muzzle) where the shooter can really concentrate on sight alignment and trigger squeeze (or pull, depending on how one thinks about it!). Of course one could go with the 130 gr TTSX for more insurance with a bit more recoil. The MV won't need to be as high (~2900 fps at the muzzle) to get 2100 at 300 yd because of the better ballistic coefficient.
That recoil will be 20 to 35% less than the 150 gr factory loads depending of which of the two one goes with.
I dont think its good to advise people to shoot elk at 300 yards with a 110 grain bullet, it would kill them, but youd have to have perfect shot placment and at 2100 fps that barns wouldnt have a large wound cannal and youd have a heck of a tracking job on your hands if not perfectly hit
Here is a video of the 130 gr TTSX from the 300 Blackout: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOoty8wcbGI. Muzzle velocity is order 2200-2300 fps and the shot appears to have been taken at 100 yards. This expansion is consistent with other ballistic gel tests of this class of bullet. And yes, one really wants to keep the impact velocity above about 2100 fps with these bullets.
In any event, the OP should do his own searches for relevant testing and balance low recoil with more convenient shot placement against heavier recoil with less assurance of good shot placement.
Yes indeed, some can shoot extraordinarily well with much heavier recoil, but all of us will do better on average with the lighter recoiling loads. Further, loading an inexpensive bullet in the same weight makes comfortable practice more doable helping get improvements in skills and confidence.
JASmith- im serious though, its not a good idea to advise someone to use a 110 gr 30 cal bullet on elk to 300 yards, they are big animals and can die slow and run far, but im guessing your not an extensive elk hunter?
I certainly agree with your concern when the bullet involved is a classic lead-core copper jacketed bullet. It is one of the reasons the .243 Winchester, while used on Elk, is not recommended by many. The same is true of the .270 Winchester with classic 130 bullets. Folks tend to lose a lot of animals with them too even though many use the load. That 110 gr TTSX, however, cuts a wound channel that has an area more like that of a 160 - 170 grain bullet and it penetrates like crazy.
A .308 with the TTSX 150gr pushed at roughly 2950fps is more than adiquate to take down an elk at <300 yds. I won't recommend it but it will do as well out to 500yds. As was pointed out, see what the terminal velocity and corresponding engery is at the chosen distance and work within the range given. Wounding and losing an animal is just wrong. Even a song dog doesn't deserve that and I shoot them at distances I don't brag about but I've done my research and know that the load chosen will do what it is designed to do.
Kris
I'm planning on using the same load for elk this year hunting in the high cascades.
JA for some reason we disagree on everything
JA smith-
I really like the Grendel.... But I do not believe the Grendel has the velocity, mass or energy needed to elk hunt with ANY bullet. 123gr going 23-2400fps...
Unless you are only head shooting elk in ranchers fields.
I hunt remote wilderness areas with no motorized vehicles at high elevations with deep canyons. So every step a wounded elk takes down a canyon is about 10 steps uphill for me with a heavy pack frame LOL! :)
I have shot a lot of Roosevelt and Rocky MT elk and I shoot 30cals. With good bullets I have no problem going with a smaller caliber, but a Grendel is definately pushing it.
Last edited by Londerko; 06-14-2014 at 12:21 PM. Reason: Directed towards 1 poster
Literally tons of Elk have been harvested in Europe and in the USA with the 6.5 X 55 Swedish Mauser.
A large portion of these have been with 130 -140 grain classic lead core bullets.
The difference between the two is that, with some bullets, the Grendel might get to 300 yards with enough velocity to reliably open while the Swede will with most bullets and go a little further.
And yes, there is a huge difference between the way lead bullets and all-copper hunting bullets perform in game. I spent a long time trying to find a relationship to no avail. Then, someone sent me a link to the papers at rathcoombe.net that are referenced in the Ideal Bullet Weight paper. That led to the paper on mesolithc (5,000 - 10,000 years BC) hunting arrow sizes vs game. That, combined with Fackler's work on wound ballistics, was enough to point me in the right direction. A few hundred tests into wet newsprint and phonebooks by folks like the author at rathcoombe.net, Sciuchetti, and BC Steve with Schichetti calibrating the phonebook data with a number of fresh-killed deer carcasses helped a lot in developing an empirical relationship between the four major classes of bullets.
Last edited by JASmith; 06-16-2014 at 12:20 AM.
saying a grendel is an elk cartridge is like saying a 223 is a mule deer cartridge.
Ach!!! Ya got me!
I am in the camp that the .223 should never be considered a mule deer cartridge.
Yet MidwayUSA lists no less than 17 different loads for medium game and mule deer are in that class...
Good points.
The whole objective of the "Ideal Bullet Weight" exercise is to strike a good balance between on bullet harvesting ability given a good hit against the challenges of ensuring a good hit in the first place. Both of these are, in the end, crap shoots. The odds are that even the heaviest bullet will only wound and that the best shooter will get a poorly placed hit on occasion. That's just the way things work.
The ten-second to incapacitation (animal faints from loss of blood pressure) rule of thumb underpinning the methodology depends on hitting the right arteries. The larger bullets up the odds of this happening but they typically go into heavy-kicking ammunition.
There are folks who have taken quite large animals with 22 rimfires and hornets but they don't necessarily have to work in steep wilderness canyons.
So, if you feel comfortable with your ability to get a 165 - 200 grain bullet into the boiler room using a large 30 caliber better than 90% of the time, then go for it! Your bullet will have about as good a chance as any for anchoring the animal before he gets very far.
BTW there are some who have taken Elk with the 123 grain SST but the methodology suggests that a lead-core expanding bullet should be 160 grains or heavier to have near-certain anchoring with a good hit. Bullet construction is as important as weight, which is why the methodology also suggests that a 120 grain partition or 100 - 110 grain all-copper expanding bullet would do about as well.
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