I finally got the low use Savage 12 F/TR with only 200 rounds clocked. Problem is it doesn't group at all. I'm getting 2 distinct groups - the main one and another lesser group (~20% of shots) 2 mins out at 2 O'clock right. I've replaced scope, checked bedding, bolts, etc etc. This is all with 155gr target projectiles, which I need to use in competition class.. I've even emailed Savage support and got a useless response as follows, in full below.
"I would bring it to your local gunsmith and have him check the barrel and then test the firearm. We use factory 168 grain Hornady TAP because it has a 1 in 10 twist
thank you"
Unfortunately this disagrees with their own website which states twist as 1 in 12. It also completely fails to acknowledge that a TARGET rifle only 200 rounds out from factory should not be shooting 2 groups 2 mins apart. I took above as complete disinterest from them..
BTW My nearest gunsmith is a 425km drive away...
Using a tight patch on cleaning rod is not proving perfect at measuring the twist for myself, I get slip every time, but am leaning towards 1 in 12 here.
Any ideas here on grouping please?
Couple of things we'll need to know: what is the load, how many shots do you fire before clean again, what 155gr pills are you using, what is you brass prep methods, how far off the lands are you shooting, and a pic of the target would all be helpful. Do you have anyone else to shoot the rifle to see how he does?
They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
A mate just pointed out that the twist is marked on the barrel 1 in 12... Don't I feel stupid... Means email from Savage is wrong..
Thanks for reply psharon. I've tried Win Palma Match ammo (155gr) HBC Dyer VLD 155, and Berger vld, all do same. Yes someone else has shot rifle and gets just same. Brass is fire formed (twice shot from factory) stainless media cleaned, CCI br2 primers and load other than factory has been tried at 45.2 gr , 45.5 gr, and 46 gr of ADI 2208. I've varied seating depths between on lands and 20 thou off. I don't generally heavily clean going with theory that copper unless showing is the bearing surface, it has occasionally had carbon brushed or swabbed out. When the rifle arrived it had been cleaned thoroughly and was same from the get go. I can't send photo of target as they are patched after each shot.
I don't know what powders you have down under (taken for granted since you are measuring in km) but you might want to try a ball powder. I have had my best luck with BLC-2 but don't know what that would cross to for you.
"And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” John 8:32 (New King James Version)
I would get some bedding compound and bed the gun. After you're done, torque the action screws to 30/30/15. Sounds like the gun is taking a set after a few shots.
An old gunsmith gave me this load when he was shooting the 155gr A-Max. It was 45gr of IMR 4895 with the bullet seated just off the lands. The VLD bullets are known to be picky from what I've read, in regards to the jump to the lands. What scope are you using? Do you have a known good scope that you can mount on the rifle to eliminate the variable of the scope.
They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
Powder is ADI 2208. I can't switch away from ADI as it is specified in the rule book for my preferred class here. It is equivalent to Varget and IMR4064. Pretty sure one of those two is exactly same powder just repackaged anyway. One of your powders is Australian made !
I've taken a look at the bedding and as suggested by the more experienced shooters here and have taken a high spot off well in front of lug and also relieved clamping by the bedding compound forward and below lug. It will be next Sunday before I can test results.
Scope is Leupold V-XIII 6.5-20x50 but I've also tried a Weaver 36x40 brand new out of box.
Do you have access to 155gr Nosler Custom Competitions? I have had great success with these and 44.0gr Varget while I was not able to get Sierra or Lapua 155 grainers to group well. The 44.0gr will work out to 600 yds, not so well at 1000.Originally Posted by FarShot
Just had another response from Savage support.
"The firearm barrel is a 1 in 12 twist and we use a 168 grain in the twist as well. We do use a 155 grain in our 12 Palma with a 1 in 13 twist. You can certainly take it to your local gunsmith for evaluation. We qualify them at 1 inch or better at 100 yards. The standard warranty is to the orginal owner for 1 year, unless it is a manufacturing defect.
thank you,"
Typo is theirs.
The response from the actual manufacturer is a far from impressive. A target rifle only qualified to 1 minute.... wow, had I known that I wouldn't have bought it..
Using 168 grainers moves me from F Std to F open and 308 will struggle against the 7mm shooters. It wouldn't be my calibre of choice for F open. Likewise changing propellant from the listed approved ADI types to others again shifts me to F Open, that is a non starter. 155 Noslers are available by mail order only, at high cost but again not approved for F Std unless the HPBT. I'd have to check the exact Cat number on that. 44g of varget (which is a direct equivalent of ADI 2208) is a lot lower charge than I've tried so far.
I'm considering the Whidden - Savage V block at the moment as well as the Pacific tool and die bolt head, always presuming such a thing can be imported.
http://www.pacifictoolandgauge.com/s...erformance.htm
http://www.whiddengunworks.net/beddingblock.html
Do you anneal? Neck tension has a huge affect on consistancy. I'd visit that before changing powders, bullets, etc. After you anneal, I suggest starting your load development over again. I use a different approach on development and it's proven itself several times. Email me if you want any info on this. Let the rifle tell you what it likes to shoot.... not the other way around.
MSG, US Army (R)/NRA F Class Match Director/NRA Certified Range Safety Officer
"The Nut behind the Butt is Responsible for the flight of the Bullet!"
Thanks for offer. No I don't anneal, but can easily get it done. I missed going to the range on Sunday so still to test alterations to the bedding, but can say my results so far remain same whether factory match ammo, my loads, or a mates own target ammo. i.e. Two groups, two minutes apart ~ 75-80% in one ~20-25% in other. That to me is not neck tension. If I had one open group I'd say that development of some form is the way to go.
Not saying this will work for you but this is what works in my rifle. It's a 12 Benchrest w/ 1-12 twist.
Lapua 155 Scenars
Lapua Brass
45.5g Varget (compressed load)
Seated .030" from lands
Around 3,000 FPS depending on temp
Thanks all for load suggestions. However to reiterate, I do NOT believe this is a load issue..
I don't believe it's a load issue, or a bedding issue, but it could be an ignition issue. Have you ever chonographed it?
"As long as there's lead in the air....there's still hope.."
Not chronographed yet. but primers have been of 3 types, factory, CCI BR2 (if I loaded) and also had some rounds with Federal primers. TBH I think I have tried too many different loads, even factory produced ammo for ignition to make sense, bolt and firing pin seem fine..
I tried it again yesterday, with a new longer heavier front bag rider and the mods to the bedding, no different really. I may try a different stock and bedding build, I'll go back to my 6mm for a few weeks while that is in progress.
You said you checked the bedding - is the action glass bedded? Is the crown damaged? If it's not glass bedded, then bed it. Best wishes.
Jim
You said you checked the bedding - is the action glass bedded? Is the crown damaged? If it's not glass bedded, then bed it. Make sure the tang is floating. Best wishes.
Jim
I've shot my 155's 2.78oal hope that helps maybe. load: 155amaxs, 46 grns varget, hornady match brass fl sized then neck sized after fireforming, and ccibr2 primers. *disclaimer use the load at your own risk*
The only time I've seen something like that happen it turned out to be a scope problem. Nikon replaced the scope and the problem went away. If you had a rifle problem like a shot out barrel, loose barrel, or throat worn out the rounds would be all over the target like a shotgun pattern. If there was a head space problem brass would be coming apart or the bolt would not close. The only other thing would be variation in projectiles (not likely but possible) or the brass is not uniform. You might try weighing your brass and load only those that are within +/- 0.5 grains of each other. Deburring the flash holes can also help tighten up the groups.
If you made sure that you shooting technique is good then I would check to make sure all the screws are snug, also, check to see if the muzzle crown is dinged. If the problem persists try swapping scopes.
The 1-12 twist is perfectly capable of shooting 150 to 175 grain bullets. The 12FTR I evaluated a few years ago did well with Varget powder (your ADI powder) running 155gr Nosler Competitions, and Berger 155gr VLD.
I think you're going to have to send it back to Savage. I have seen two barrels from them, both chrome moly barrels, that were unfortunately made from bent bar stock. They will replace the barrel if it will not shoot for them. They did that to both of the other poor-grouping rifles I am aware of, and they both shot great after that. As in 0.277" for 5 shots at 100 yds. Their accuracy guarantee may be published as 1" at 100 yards, but they do not want the rifle to shoot that poorly, especially a 12 F/TR.
Jim
If the groups come at one time. For example all in one group and then all of sudden the next 5 in another group. It is probably your spot-weld or some other part of your position. Even with F Class, if you change something the group will change. Don't lift your head off the stock while waiting for the target. Don't scratch your bottom or change your leg position. Don't move for the entire 20 round string.
Tom
Going with what Sharpshooter mentioned I too would get a chronograph setup.... Pin protrusion should be cut back to 0.040" as it is most likely .055+.
I'm curious to know how it is that you're absolutely certain that the load is correct?... Granted it does sound like a mechanical problem , check action screws to be certain they are of proper length .
As far as using one of Johns bedding blocks that is certainly an option but I would at the very least do a light skim coat and be sure to FLOAT the rear tang area.
I had a 12F in 6.5x284 that would shoot very well once fouled to about 15 rounds but would need cleaning by 50 rounds (quite finicky) , one of the first things I did to get it to shoot before I replaced the barrel was give the bedding area a skim coat and re-did the pillars along with float the tang area.
Good luck.
There are methods to eliminate poor accuracy problems and issues. What have you done to eliminate those potential issues? Do you have a list of the methods you used to do this? Can we share with us what you have done. Include your reloading equipment and the process, the name and brand of your optics as well. Give us the same information on the optics you have used to eliminate that chance. Can you post pictures of multiple targets wher the rifle repeats this two group issue.
Last edited by Robinhood; 11-01-2014 at 04:08 PM.
I realize we can load stiffer than the reloading manuals but according to hornady you are over book on your charge weight. Have you tried a ladder test starting low and working up. Then when you find a node then seating depth tests start. If it is bedded stress free and you are still fighting it then maybe you have a barrel that is simply no good or stressed to the max from manufacturing. I would break the nut free and retorque the barrel to make sure the factory didn't way over tighten it. I watched a video and they use an impact wrench to tighten it which is a crap shoot to me. I torque the barrels at no more than 50 foot pounds myself and never had a problem.
Willing to give back for what the sport has done for me!
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