Problem mounting rail to 110 flat back due to twisted action- permanently bed?

[notpu]

I recently picked up an old Savage 110 flat back in .270, and I somehow did not realize how twisted the back of the action was until I tried to mount an EGW one-piece 20 MOA rail (attached loosely with two front screws in picture below). The back is so twisted that I could not even get the rear screws all the way in. I assume that I will need to bed the rail (I've never done this, but I know there are posts about how to do it). My main question is: How do I secure it? Both front screws seem to fit fine. I don't mind permanently attaching the rail (unless anyone has a reason not to). Do I bed it and not use any release agent, securing just the front with screws?

My goal for the rifle in the near term is to be a hunting rifle, but I bought it with the intention of changing calibers and stocks down the road and getting into practical rifle/long distance (>600 yards). This is my first post, so if I messed something up, please let me know. Thanks for the help.

[bootsmcguire]

I think you may have bigger issues than just making the base fit. Have you shot the rifle yet? How smoothly does the bolt cycle?

Without trying to straighten the action, I wonder if some Burris Sig Zee rings mounted in a 2pc fashion would allow you to straighten the scope to the bore enough to get it straight.

However with the action twisted like that, I am betting that it doesn't sit in the stock properly at all, and when the bolt is engaged it may not be placing the lugs properly on action's bolt ramps, and for that matter the barrel could be sitting crooked to the rest of the action.

Based off of the picture there is a heck of a slant going on there and that is going to transpose in the scope, without getting the action straightened I think you are going to end up chasing your tail with issues. Sometimes they can be straightened and sometimes not.

If you want shoot me a PM and we can chat about it in a little greater detail if you decide to go that way. I'll help with info however I can.

[olddav]

I hate to be so casual but I would try to straighten the action. I read some where on this forum or another that it was not that difficult. You may want to do a little research first and be careful.

[bootsmcguire]

Yup, straighten. The more I think on it, it's the only solution.

[sharpshooter]

Look closer...there's more to it than just a twist. Looks like the rear deck is severly out of square. Although I think it can be salvaged, there are better specimins out there to build from.

[notpu]

I think you may have bigger issues than just making the base fit. Have you shot the rifle yet? How smoothly does the bolt cycle?

Without trying to straighten the action, I wonder if some Burris Sig Zee rings mounted in a 2pc fashion would allow you to straighten the scope to the bore enough to get it straight.

However with the action twisted like that, I am betting that it doesn't sit in the stock properly at all, and when the bolt is engaged it may not be placing the lugs properly on action's bolt ramps, and for that matter the barrel could be sitting crooked to the rest of the action.

Based off of the picture there is a heck of a slant going on there and that is going to transpose in the scope, without getting the action straightened I think you are going to end up chasing your tail with issues. Sometimes they can be straightened and sometimes not.

If you want shoot me a PM and we can chat about it in a little greater detail if you decide to go that way. I'll help with info however I can.

I think the bolt cycles reasonably smoothly, but I don't have any point of comparison, as it's my first Savage and first non-.22 bolt action.

It seems to fit in the stock fine, but I'm not sure what to look for (I've removed the stock and didn't find anything that seemed obviously off). I have not yet shot it, though the gentleman I bought it from said it shot fine in the 20 or so rounds he put through it. I'm obviously questioning what he told me. I watched it cycle factory ammo fine, but one of his handloads hung up.

I am wary about throwing good money after bad. I am not emotionally invested in the rifle, which I picked up for $200. I'm also having trouble finding information about how to get an action straightened and ballpark ideas for the cost. I'll follow up with a PM, but for anyone who might have a similar issue, where would be a good place to start looking?

Thanks for everyone's help.

[BillPa]

Look closer...there's more to it than just a twist. Looks like the rear deck is severly out of square. Although I think it can be salvaged, there are better specimins out there to build from.

I sure the heck haven't worked on as many Savage rifles as you, but that's the first I've seen one with stamping on the rear of the bridge, the "F 395". I might be wrong, but have a feeling that one was made while I was still in middle school in the late 50's-early 60s.

Bill

[olddav]

If memory serves, take a heavy wood shaft, insert it into the opening for the bolt and extend into the opening for the mag well. Move dowel to the back of the action and apply torque. You should be able to use the scope base as a guide. The gentleman said that it required less torque than you might think. I have no idea if this works or not, but it is what I read.

You will need to remove action from stock and immobilize the front of the action.

[notpu]

I sure the heck haven't worked on as many Savage rifles as you, but that's the first I've seen one with stamping on the rear of the bridge, the "F 395". I might be wrong, but have a feeling that one was made while I was still in middle school in the late 50's-early 60s.

Bill

Bill, I'm pretty sure you are correct. The serial is A633xxx, and the barrel is stamped Savage Model 110D Series H.

If memory serves, take a heavy wood shaft, insert it into the opening for the bolt and extend into the opening for the mag well. Move dowel to the back of the action and apply torque. You should be able to use the scope base as a guide. The gentleman said that it required less torque than you might think. I have no idea if this works or not, but it is what I read.

You will need to remove action from stock and immobilize the front of the action.

olddav, I'm not sure I follow. Is the torque applied in a clockwise motion looking down the barrel from the action in an effort to flatten the top of the rear? I would need a rectangular shaft, correct?

[BillPa]

Did anyone notice the flat on the bridge is at a greater angle than the lug races? Look at the difference in the amount of metal from the top of the lug races to the flat.



I could twist it so the bridge is square in a few minutes, but the bolt would go through the action like a corkscrew!

[notpu]

Did anyone notice the flat on the bridge is at a greater angle than the lug races? Look at the difference in the amount of metal from the top of the lug races to the flat.

I could twist it so the bridge is square in a few minutes, but the bolt would go through the action like a corkscrew!

Sorry for the ignorant question, but how bad would that be? What do you think the end result would be if I could straighten it so that the bridge is level?

I also noticed the thin vertical wall on the right and the much thicker, shorter, and curved wall on the left. I know nothing of how these were manufactured, but it almost seems like the lug races were cut/formed after the angle ended up in the bridge; otherwise, wouldn't the angles that you noticed be similar? Thanks for your interest and help!

[olddav]

You have three options as I see it.
One is have a gun smith look at it and advise.
Two is try to straighten it yourself.
Three install sights and abandon the idea of mounting a scope.
The question that comes to my mind, is it useful as it is? If the action is not useful as it is today then please select from option one or two.
There may be more problems than anyone can see with just the one angle provided and even with more pictures problems may still remain undetected. Only you or someone who can put their hands on the action has any hope of spotting any additional problems. Take your best guess and remember, "Only you will suffer if you guess wrong".

[BillPa]

Sorry for the ignorant question, but how bad would that be? What do you think the end result would be if I could straighten it so that the bridge is level?

I also noticed the thin vertical wall on the right and the much thicker, shorter, and curved wall on the left. I know nothing of how these were manufactured, but it almost seems like the lug races were cut/formed after the angle ended up in the bridge; otherwise, wouldn't the angles that you noticed be similar? Thanks for your interest and help!

If it was machined before or after the lug races were broached I don't know, but my best guess the bridge was cut flat using the "looks good" approach after a few shots of Jack Daniels.

If you look at the right side of the bridge the flat machined for bolt release clearance and the lug races you'll see they're parallel to each other and the best I can tell from your pic the races appear to be straight.

One other question, do the holes for the mount screws line up now? If the holes line up the best you can do, bed the the action to the mount otherwise hang it on the wall or sell it to someone you don't like.

Bill

[notpu]

If it was machined before or after the lug races were broached I don't know, but my best guess the bridge was cut flat using the "looks good" approach after a few shots of Jack Daniels.

If you look at the right side of the bridge the flat machined for bolt release clearance and the lug races you'll see they're parallel to each other and the best I can tell from your pic the races appear to be straight.

One other question, do the holes for the mount screws line up now? If the holes line up the best you can do, bed the the action to the mount otherwise hang it on the wall or sell it to someone you don't like.

Bill

As I mentioned in my original post, the back is at too great of an angle to even get the rear screws all the way in. Furthermore, the four holes do not line up with the barrel. I think the front two screws may be lined up close enough, which is why I asked it if could make sense to permanently bed the base, using screws only in the front. I don't know if that would be strong enough, and I'm not sure what products could be best for it.

It seems that there's a lack of consensus regarding whether the action is actually twisted, necessitating that I twist it back, or simply cut poorly, necessitating making the best of what's there. Could twisting the bridge level make things worse?

[olddav]

notpu
The action is twisted!
I would have the action repaired (aligned) and use all the screws for the scope base.
There comes a point where creativity with a firearm is not wise, and I think we are there.

I'm wondering if the action screws are aligned, can you install both the front and back action screws?
I've been tring to resist but I can't help myself, would you please remove the action and post more pics of the actions?

[notpu]

notpu
The action is twisted!
I would have the action repaired (aligned) and use all the screws for the scope base.
There comes a point where creativity with a firearm is not wise, and I think we are there.

I'm wondering if the action screws are aligned, can you install both the front and back action screws?
I've been tring to resist but I can't help myself, would you please remove the action and post more pics of the actions?

Sure, I'll post some tonight. It seems to fit fine in the stock. Are there any particular angles that would be most helpful?

[notpu]

I ended up taking more pictures while the light was decent, and I've included two others from when I had the rail on it. Let me know if other angles would be helpful. I've also scaled these images down a lot, so let me know if larger (or smaller) images would be useful. Thanks for everyone's continued help and interest!

[bootsmcguire]

Based off the pics I am starting to agree with Billpa and think that this is more of a bad milling job rather than a twist, or at least a combo of both. The action screw hole look to be correct or at least a lot closer than the rear bridge is.

It looks like your 1pc base is sitting darn close to parallel with the long axis of the rifle. If the action screw holes are indeed straight then I would say either milling the rear bridge flat and then putting shims (or bedding) the rear of the base would be your best option, or bedding as is and watching it like a hawk for awhile. Either way I would plan on using Burris Sig Zee rings so you can get your scope aligned properly for sure.

[olddav]

Install the action screws and see if they line up or not.

[notpu]

Install the action screws and see if they line up or not.

Sorry for being slow here, but are you telling me to install the action screws while the action is out of the stock and seeing how they line up?

[Smokey262]

Fred pointed out the flaw in his post. Notice that the bolt raceway appears to be parallel with the tang and the machining marks on the back end. Only the top is messed up. I wouldn't straighten it so the top is straight, I think you would twist the bolt raceways

You might be able to mill the top to make it parallel. Looks like excess meat on the right side anyway :)

[bootsmcguire]

Sorry for being slow here, but are you telling me to install the action screws while the action is out of the stock and seeing how they line up?

Yup, that is a good way to visually check how straight the screw holes are in the action bottom. If one screw is really leaning then they are off as well.

[olddav]

Yes, install acton screws into the action outside of the stock. If they line up then you can't attempt to straighten the action.

[notpu]

Yes, install acton screws into the action outside of the stock. If they line up then you can't attempt to straighten the action.

Let me know if I should measure this differently, but the action screws seem to line up pretty well with the barrel.

The scope holes seem better lined up than I realized, but the angle makes it difficult to get the rear screws in.

[olddav]

OK, I yield to those who say it is no twisted and have no solutions for this problem.
Frankly it still looks twisted to me but if the action screws are in line with the barrel then there no way the action is twisted.
Sorry to have wasted your time.