Varget powder

**FW Conch** · 07-31-2014, 05:37 AM

??? I think your logic is way off on this one thermaler ???

I think water vapor is denser than all the others mentioned?

Just Sayin :-))

**thermaler** · 07-31-2014, 08:12 AM

http://www.theweatherprediction.com/habyhints/260/

I'm also a glider pilot--and need to be very aware of air density. Every now and then you'll hear of crashes where a plane didn't get off the ground in time in hot, humid conditions due to heavy loading.

**FW Conch** · 07-31-2014, 10:12 AM

That's what I love about this place! I learn something new every day !

Thanks.....Jim :-))

**eddiesindian** · 07-31-2014, 11:07 AM

The air is defently heavier in humid conditions. Ive purposely gone out to the desert valleys in adverse conditions (high humidity) and started sending rounds out to 1K and found my poi falling short by about 1-1.5 moa @ 1K. 10 inches doesnt sound like much buts its the difference between a hit or a miss.
Ive shot the same rig out to the same distance in dry conditions and my rounds went where there supposed to go.
Frankly, Id much rather deal with wet air as opposed to dry "windy" air. Seems like the more i think I have my windage adjustments figured out, the more the Gods of wind send me back to school.

**thermaler** · 07-31-2014, 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by eddiesindian

The air is defently heavier in humid conditions.....

Not true my friend--but whatever. ; )

**thermaler** · 07-31-2014, 01:49 PM

Originally Posted by FW Conch

That's what I love about this place! I learn something new every day !

Thanks.....Jim :-))

I have to admit it does seem counter-intuitive--this one fools a lot of people.

**eddiesindian** · 07-31-2014, 08:56 PM

fooled indeed.
some-not all ballistic calculators ask for humidity levels.
What ive found is that the higher the humidity, the more drop of the projectile. be as it may, its slight but at distance, it makes a world of difference.
Luckily for me, the ballistic calculator I use doesnt ask for humidity nor baro pressure. defently ask for temp and altitude along with the rest of needed inputs and has always been spot on. I know that altitude and baro pressure almost go hand in hand relatively speaking.
Id of figured theres more water molecules in the air causing more of a bullet drag.
apparantly not

**thermaler** · 08-01-2014, 02:11 AM

Originally Posted by eddiesindian

fooled indeed.
some-not all ballistic calculators ask for humidity levels.
What ive found is that the higher the humidity, the more drop of the projectile. be as it may, its slight but at distance, it makes a world of difference.
Luckily for me, the ballistic calculator I use doesnt ask for humidity nor baro pressure. defently ask for temp and altitude along with the rest of needed inputs and has always been spot on. I know that altitude and baro pressure almost go hand in hand relatively speaking.
Id of figured theres more water molecules in the air causing more of a bullet drag.
apparantly not

I don't doubt for a second that your results are exactly what you say--and can see why you might think humidity actually adds mass to the air.
I definitely don't have the ballistics knowledge or long distance trajectory experience that you do--but I'm guessing that the other factors like pressure altitude and air temperature probably have more effect on your results than the additional humidity you experienced.

I've been flying for almost 30 years--and have learned that the atmosphere is a very dynamic environment that rarely can be modeled with precise accuracy by even our best supercomputers--just look at how often the weather guys get it wrong. Much modeling assumes standard rates of change in things like ambient air cooling and barometric pressure changes--but those standards can literally and figuratively be tossed to the wind depending upon things like a frontal passage, temperature inversions (very common in mountainous terrain) and heating/cooling of the earth's surface (convective heating). All other factors held constant--humid air is less dense than dry air--but I'm guessing what you experienced was a greater temperature or altitude density change which had a greater effect on your bullet's trajectory than the humidity.

This article on Lilja's website explalns why, in calculating the effects of humidity on a bullet's trajectory, humidity is considered negligible when compared to temperature and barometric pressure and is probably why some programs exclude humidity in their calculations. http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles...erformance.htm In the aviation community humid air can have profound consequences--both beneficial and disastrous.

acemisser · 08-01-2014, 07:11 AM

don't workfor me either..H 4895 is the best for me....la la la

emtrescue6 · 08-01-2014, 09:59 AM

I have had the same experience as Frank when it comes to Varget...I tried it a couple of times with mediocre results and never went back.

**eddiesindian** · 08-01-2014, 11:08 AM

Originally Posted by thermaler

I don't doubt for a second that your results are exactly what you say--and can see why you might think humidity actually adds mass to the air.
I definitely don't have the ballistics knowledge or long distance trajectory experience that you do--but I'm guessing that the other factors like pressure altitude and air temperature probably have more effect on your results than the additional humidity you experienced.

I've been flying for almost 30 years--and have learned that the atmosphere is a very dynamic environment that rarely can be modeled with precise accuracy by even our best supercomputers--just look at how often the weather guys get it wrong. Much modeling assumes standard rates of change in things like ambient air cooling and barometric pressure changes--but those standards can literally and figuratively be tossed to the wind depending upon things like a frontal passage, temperature inversions (very common in mountainous terrain) and heating/cooling of the earth's surface (convective heating). All other factors held constant--humid air is less dense than dry air--but I'm guessing what you experienced was a greater temperature or altitude density change which had a greater effect on your bullet's trajectory than the humidity.

This article on Lilja's website explalns why, in calculating the effects of humidity on a bullet's trajectory, humidity is considered negligible when compared to temperature and barometric pressure and is probably why some programs exclude humidity in their calculations. http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles...erformance.htm In the aviation community humid air can have profound consequences--both beneficial and disastrous.

roger that.
Ive considered paying closer attention to barometric pressure. My ballistic tables I have at hand for any giving round include tempetures from 50dg-100dg. I know cold weather defently has considerable amount oo drop as opposed to high temps.
When I started sending and hitting at long distance it became addictive/challenging. Theres so many variables dished out by mother nature which in turn have made it even more challenging.
having great groupings at short distance to me equates to better groupings at long distance but if you cant adjust to mother nature then its all for not....especially the wind.

cranebird · 08-01-2014, 07:05 PM

So I will not wonder what happened if I miss the intended target. Well I've got great news.I am back from surgery at Buffalo VA this morning.They were thinking I had a brain tumor but it turned out that it wasn't a brain tumor. I told them one would have to have a brain in order to have a brain tumor but they weren't listening...... They were able to remove the tissue growth, I'm feeling more light headed than ever and I am already home.I should be ready to shoot in a week or so plus I got this in the mail today.I need to pick up a lottery ticket while I'm on a roll.........

**earl39** · 08-01-2014, 08:01 PM

And for the faint of heart i scored 15 pounds of RL-15 today. Yes ladies and gents it also is not a myth.

cranebird · 08-01-2014, 08:13 PM

Dang Gary !

I see reloader 15 available on a pretty regular basis here.I bought a can of Winchester 748 which has been as rare as hens teeth around my area.

**thermaler** · 08-01-2014, 08:46 PM

Originally Posted by cranebird

So I will not wonder what happened if I miss the intended target. Well I've got great news.I am back from surgery at Buffalo VA this morning.They were thinking I had a brain tumor but it turned out that it wasn't a brain tumor. I told them one would have to have a brain in order to have a brain tumor but they weren't listening...... They were able to remove the tissue growth, I'm feeling more light headed than ever and I am already home.I should be ready to shoot in a week or so plus I got this in the mail today.I need to pick up a lottery ticket while I'm on a roll.........

looks like some kinda hbar? congrats on the positive outlooks!

**DanSavage** · 08-01-2014, 10:33 PM

Originally Posted by cranebird

So I will not wonder what happened if I miss the intended target. Well I've got great news.I am back from surgery at Buffalo VA this morning.They were thinking I had a brain tumor but it turned out that it wasn't a brain tumor. I told them one would have to have a brain in order to have a brain tumor but they weren't listening...... They were able to remove the tissue growth, I'm feeling more light headed than ever and I am already home.I should be ready to shoot in a week or so plus I got this in the mail today.I need to pick up a lottery ticket while I'm on a roll.........

Bet you can't wait to get that baby shooting!

cranebird · 08-02-2014, 08:17 AM

Originally Posted by thermaler

looks like some kinda hbar? congrats on the positive outlooks!

Thank you. Quite frankly, I was scared half to death, couldn't sleep ,my mind was constantly racing in a quest for things, I didn't have answers for.

cranebird · 08-02-2014, 08:29 AM

Originally Posted by DanSavage

Bet you can't wait to get that baby shooting!

You know it !

**foxx** · 08-02-2014, 10:19 AM

Wow, Crane, that's great news. Sorry you had to go through all of that. I know a little bit about the agony of anxiety. It's not fun for you or your family and friends.

**Dennis** · 08-03-2014, 12:31 AM

Is there any Varget hiding out there. I am willing to drive to get it. Someone told me OK has Varget at several stores. ????

**BoilerUP** · 08-03-2014, 07:38 AM

I'm actually selling up to 6 1lb canisters of Varget over on SnipersHide ($55 per two pounds), but can't ship it.

**yobuck** · 08-03-2014, 09:24 AM

Originally Posted by eddiesindian

roger that.
Ive considered paying closer attention to barometric pressure. My ballistic tables I have at hand for any giving round include tempetures from 50dg-100dg. I know cold weather defently has considerable amount oo drop as opposed to high temps.
When I started sending and hitting at long distance it became addictive/challenging. Theres so many variables dished out by mother nature which in turn have made it even more challenging.
having great groupings at short distance to me equates to better groupings at long distance but if you cant adjust to mother nature then its all for not....especially the wind.

Im sure temp changes are affecting the powder burn more so than the bullet flight. We notice big changes in very cold weather and more with some powder than others.
Keeping the ammo warm till you shoot helps also. Humidity is an enemy for a long range hunter regardless of it's affect on bullet flight. On very humid days looking thru
high power optics is like looking thru a fish bowl. Higher altitudes and dry air is definatly a plus.

**eddiesindian** · 08-03-2014, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by yobuck

Im sure temp changes are affecting the powder burn more so than the bullet flight. We notice big changes in very cold weather and more with some powder than others.
Keeping the ammo warm till you shoot helps also. Humidity is an enemy for a long range hunter regardless of it's affect on bullet flight. On very humid days looking thru
high power optics is like looking thru a fish bowl. Higher altitudes and dry air is definatly a plus.

here in the southwestern part of Texas, summer temps are way up there so I keep them placed in my ammo bag.Keeps them abit cooler while Im sending rds. Varget was my powder of choice for not being temp sensitive. but seeing as how I couldnt find it in these parts I oppted for 4064, glad I did. 4064 is without a dought abit on the temp sensitive side. I see it in 90 plus dg weather when sending out to distance 800 out to 1200, but Im good with it. Pain to meter but I can also deal with that as well.
Im "extremely" lucky to have the locations to shoot at here in southwest Tx. elevations go from 3800 up to 4400ft at the locations I shoot at. Higher altitude,less powder,faster speeds,dry air etc....just have to deal with the freken winds which is non stop.
I probably dont see the humidity you see. The weather is dry for the most part except when the monzoon hits which is right now.

Looking back on this hole powder shortage. Im glad I was forced to look elsewhere as far as a propellant. When my Varget runs completely out, Im just going to stick with 4064..................least thats what Im saying right now, yr from now who knows what my reloading mind tells me to try. lolol

cranebird · 08-04-2014, 05:57 PM

Originally Posted by eddiesindian

here in the southwestern part of Texas, summer temps are way up there so I keep them placed in my ammo bag.Keeps them abit cooler while Im sending rds. Varget was my powder of choice for not being temp sensitive. but seeing as how I couldnt find it in these parts I oppted for 4064, glad I did. 4064 is without a dought abit on the temp sensitive side. I see it in 90 plus dg weather when sending out to distance 800 out to 1200, but Im good with it. Pain to meter but I can also deal with that as well.
Im "extremely" lucky to have the locations to shoot at here in southwest Tx. elevations go from 3800 up to 4400ft at the locations I shoot at. Higher altitude,less powder,faster speeds,dry air etc....just have to deal with the freken winds which is non stop.
I probably dont see the humidity you see. The weather is dry for the most part except when the monzoon hits which is right now.

Looking back on this hole powder shortage. Im glad I was forced to look elsewhere as far as a propellant. When my Varget runs completely out, Im just going to stick with 4064..................least thats what Im saying right now, yr from now who knows what my reloading mind tells me to try. lolol

Every time I go to the gunshop,I drag home another can of powder. How bad can the powder shortage be ?

**eddiesindian** · 08-04-2014, 06:59 PM

I cant find any of the propellants I like here. RL-15....4064....Varget.
The local range which is located on a military base used to carry everything. not anymore. any other lgs wont carry it either and if they do?.....its full pop-retail plus.
I have to get my propellants and components from the Phoenix Az. area