12 F/TR quality PIC ADDED

[ellobo]

From what I know of button broaching there would never be tool marks like that. Or should I say, should never be marks like that. What it looks like to me is a badly done cut broached barrel. Is Savage having barrels made in China like every other company is having thier stuff made in China?
Send that pc. of crap back and demand a decent barrel.

El Lobo

[pls4541]

I've recently purchased 2 savage rifles, (models 16 & 10) that arrived with bright clean bores and shoot as well, (or better) than 2 seriously custom crafted remington 700's. I reqularly use the jb bore paste in all my rifles now, and believe that the cleaner the bore the more accurate the rifle.....back to the point.....someone really screwed up on your barrel and it needs to go back to factory for replacement. Maybe they can even have a few department meetings detailing how not to let that happen again. One reason for my recent switch to Savage is due to the fact that I beleive each operator is accountable for quality and works hard to produce the best product possible for the customer. Now, if you want to discuss inadequate customer service....let me tell you about a Bushnell scope problem......keep shooting strait!

[intel]

This is puzzling, I don't see how the machining marks could be on the "Lands" and "Grooves", especially when Savage barrels are button rifled, very confusing indeed, I would send that one back and get a explanation from Savage.

[Wes_VB]

This is puzzling, I don't see how the machining marks could be on the "Lands" and "Grooves", especially when Savage barrels are button rifled, very confusing indeed, I would send that one back and get a explanation from Savage.

I'm pretty sure that the marks are from drilling. I can get a better look at it here with higher resolution and you can tell that the marks have been flattened by the button. I can also tell that the are no marks on the shoulders of the lands.
Curious, so I went to a local shop that has a 12 F/TR and a 12 Palma and both of these rifles barrels are similar to this one. Maybe not quite as bad but similar.
If the wind will ever lay here I may get to shoot it tomorrow.

[bluealtered]

My 12fvss .308 looks about like that, with about 500rds through it now. My best group to date is three shots in a 1" orange stickum at 342yds, thats as far as i can shoot at our range. It will shoot ragged one hole groups at 200yds most of the time. This is from a simple m-t-m rest, not a leadsled, i would have to chime in with try it first.

You should remember that now you have a "it won't work" thought in the back of your mind, try not to let that get in the way and remember being new it will still need some rounds through it to "settle" down. And if nothing else, savage will make it right.

P.S. i learned years ago not to look down the barrel of a factory savage, it just makes your heart sink. But they shoot as good as the shooter anyway. blue

[Blue Avenger]

Ummmm....send that one back.

I have to agree that looks awful .Send it back.

must agree send it back i have a junk lathe an cut better threads than that

you guys all have ugly barrel nuts on your rifles, there is no way it can shoot that way, send them back!

[82boy]

Every Savage barrel I have seen look similar to the one pictured. I guess most people don't look, or are able to bring out the clarity of the barrel as seen in the picture, to see what the barrel actually looks like.

Is Savage having barrels made in China like every other company is having thier stuff made in China?
El Lobo

No Savage has not farmed there barrel making out to China, they still make barrels the same way they have done for around 50 years. Savage knows that there barrels are rough, and they will not deny it. The thing to remember is Savage mass produces high volume of barrels, and does so at a super fast rate. It is because of the speeds, that cause the barrels to look like they do. (It take them 2 times the amount of time to set up the barrel for button rifling, as it does to actually do the rifling, The rifling only takes a few seconds to accomplish.) The folks at Savage told me that they are capable to slow the machines down and make a barrel that is smooth, and looks like a custom barrel, but it would not shoot any better, and the cost would skyrocket, so it is not to their benefit.

The fact is Savage is known for their out of box accuracy. They sell thousands of rifles a year, not to say they can have a bad apple out of the bunch every now and then, but I would say most rifles that are returned, are for cosmetic reason, that do not affect the accuracy or function of the rifle. I am willing to bet if this rifle was sent back to Savage, they would test fire it and find it good, and send it back, or to make the customer happy they would place a new barrel on, and I am willing to bet that would look exactly like the barrel they pulled off.

I can say from my experience that you can never judge a barrel by how it looks. Some of the best shooting barrels I have seen are one that people have gave up on, or just totally look horrible. One barrel that come to mind is one the Sharpshooter owns. This barrel was tortured in a dog town, with well over 4000 rounds of 22/250. Sharpshooter took this barrel, cut it, and re-chambered it in 22BR. He dumped a bunch of Sweets down the barrel and let it sit overnight, and cleaned it out, to find that the fist 4 inches of barrel is smoked, NO RIFLING AT ALL. This barrel shoots groups in the .3 to .2 area all day long, and would outshout most new barrels.

Another barrel that comes to mind is a factory Savage 204 Ruger barrel I bought. he barrel was a take off it had a big scratch down the barrel. The scratch could be seen with the naked eye, and it ran the full length of the barrel. This barrel would shoot in the .3's all day long.

In closing don't judge a book by its cover. (Meaning go out and shoot the thing first.) Don't worry about the oversize bore, as long as it can hold the bullet, and spin it what does it matter.

[intel]

Okay lets forget about the accuracy aspect of this, what is puzzling to me is how after the button is passed thru the drilled/bored barrel and it presses/tranferes the rifling to the barrel it still has the machining marks, they should be pressed away, at least on the "groove" part of the rifling.

[Wes_VB]

Not to worry folks. I am at peace with the appearance and fully expect it to be a hammer.
After listening to the Team Savage and the US team members and others who say the same thing and looking at two model 12s at the local gunstore I'm convinced this is just a Savage barrel and it WILL shoot fine.
I'll find out tomorrow.


Somebody should have warned me ahead of time before I raised a stink.

[Balljoint]

Never looked at my bore of my F/TR just as well it shoots very WELL INDEED

[Carvera]

If a guy pays "top dollar" and he is not satisfied with his purchase, he should be able to return for a refund or an exchange right? If I was planning on dropping the kind of money that Savage wants for some of their "high end" models I would want to be 100% satisfied. Can we agree on that? If some of you guys claim that every Savage barrel you've seen looks just like the one pictured, that's fine. What about the guy who drops $1000 on his first Savage rifle, what's he to think? I guess that individual can come here and ask questions, but there is a common thread, (no pun intended ;D) that he basically should "just suck it up" that's how Savage does things.

Moderator's, (for educational purposes) maybe you can take the picture of this barrel, and put it in the "sticky's" showing what a common Savage barrel normally looks like? That would help potential buyers by letting them know they shouldn't be so disappointed in appearance of their newly purchased rifle. Let them know that is a "common thing". But if I were Savage, (or even a Savage employee that surfs this board) You don't think that Savage employee may ask; "Would you please take that picture off of your site, it will take away from our sales".

If Savage were to receive this rifle/barrel, they would test fire it, but I doubt they would send it back with said barrel. Why would Savage send this barrel back if they really wanted to make their customer happy? If they did place a new barrel on (before sending it back) I would think that they would put a better looking barrel on that gun. They surely realize that if the customer already has an "eye" for looking over their craftmanship, they don't want to send you back a barrel that looks like the one you just returned? Internet forums do wonders when it comes to spreading information on how they've been taken care of by said company.

If you can't judge a barrel by how it looks, then someone please explain why so many of you are willing to pay premium money for aftermarket barrels? Like I said earlier, I know that a Savage factory barrel isn't a "custom barrel". Someone tactfully explain to me why a premium custom barrel maker couldn't just tell you; "Hey, who cares how it looks. I know you just spent $300 of your hard earned money, but you should just shoot the thing and be happy". I guess either Savage, or a custom barrel maker could take that approach but don't you think that will hurt business....... just a little bit?

Personally I would have a hard time telling someone, "Don't judge a book by its cover" If they just dumped a boatload of cash and received a prodcut that they had high hopes for only to be completely disappionted and confused?

I'm obviously not speaking for Wes_VB, as it sounds as if he's content. I'm just "hypothetically speaking".

Conversation anyone?

[intel]

http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2006/...-2-button.html

[borg]

Here is my conversation: Team Savage has spoken. They are kicking ass with ugly barrels attached to the receiver with ugly barrel nuts. As an ugly nut myself, I'm falling in line with the crowd who goes out and proves that aesthetics are secondary to function.

[ellobo]

OK, with all that said, there is another famous Savage trait, barrels that copper up heavily when new. After looking at that barrel it becomes obvious why. Those of us that know about it take care of it. BUT, and its a big BUT, how about Joe six pack that goes out and buys a Savage and never heard about coppering up, which is proabably 98% of the people who buy rifles. And if said Joe shoots a lot or is a varmint shooter after Pdogs and fires a lot of rounds and after several hundred the barrel coppers up and cant hit nuttin' he hears from dear old Dad, "I told ya to buy a Remington, every one knows them d**n Savages are junk." So Joe six pack trades it in for a Remington. Just one of the problems that have given Savage a bad name over the years. We have all heard the complaints, wether justified or not, they are out there.
Also, I cant understand how a barrel button broached can look like that. I have seen bores (not rifle bores) button broached and they never looked like that. One of the reasons for button broaching is it's fast and accurate smooth contours. It forges, not cuts, and I cannot understand how a carbide button can leave a barrel looking like it was cut with a threading V tool in the bore and grooves.
Will someone please explain that too me, an old tooling and manufacturing engineer.

El Lobo

[Wes_VB]

Also, I cant understand how a barrel button broached can look like that. I have seen bores (not rifle bores) button broached and they never looked like that. One of the reasons for button broaching is it's fast and accurate smooth contours. It forges, not cuts, and I cannot understand how a carbide button can leave a barrel looking like it was cut with a threading V tool in the bore and grooves.
Will someone please explain that too me, an old tooling and manufacturing engineer.

El Lobo

I really think what we are seeing is artifacts from the drilling. I have the original pic and can look at it in much higher resolution than I posted to Photobucket.
It's pretty obvious that the grooves and lands have a rather distinct flat spot on the surface where the button flattened the original drill marks. I can also see that the shoulders of the lands do not have these marks which just enforces that the rings are left over from the barrel drilling operation.
Original pic was taken with a 30 year old Lester Dine Kiron 100mm Macro lens. To this day it is one of if not the best Macro lenses ever made.

[ellobo]

Wes,
In your original post you mentioned that the bore on your barrel was .002 oversize at the muzzle. I wonder what the tolerances are that Savage uses. + or - .003 ? I would love to know. Plus, all the wonderfull shooting barrels mentioned in previous answers to this post were all as accurate as mentioned before they were broken in? Some obviously but I have my doubts about all. I have a feeling a lot of copper remover wqas used before these barrels ever ended up as world beaters which they obviously are. In any event Wes, if you shoot that barrel, I suggest you invest in a jug of copper remover. And I do hope it becomes a world beater in spite of what you may think after reading my posts.

El Lobo and for the record it is really el lobo loco AKA Crazywolf

[scaxeman]

Hey All,

A question for Wes, if you have not shot your rifle yet, try very lightly pulling a very sharp dental pick (or similar probe) over the last 3-5 mm of the bore. I too wondered if the marks were simply left over from the reaming process, and flattened by the button as it was pulled through, and tried this with the only barrel I still have of this vintage. Unfortunately, my barrel has 3600+ rounds through it, so the marks were fairly worn. What I found was that there was less felt texture to the bore than the looks would indicate, this may have been due to the higher round count, so I am curious if this holds true with your new barrel.

Lobo: Probably less copper remover than you'd expect ;D I treat these barrels like most competitive .308 shooters treat theirs (F-T/R, Palma, etc.) that is, they get cleaned every 300 rounds or so whether they need it or not! Most guys I shoot with will not clean at all in the middle of a multi-day match. Aside from a dry Boresnake every few days, I did not clean the rifle at all for the entire 2.5 weeks of the World Championships, and as far as I know, neither did almost anyone else. That first barrel took me ~ 75-100 shots to get a load that I thought would work for me. Is that a "break-in"? Maybe, but I took no special "break-in" procedures at all. As I mentioned to Wes, the barrels that look like those are really a thing of the past. The barrels produced in the last 18 months or so are a night and day difference.

Here's a couple of images contrasting an early barrel pic (not quite as dramatically marked as Wes', although 3600+ rounds through it too) and a barrel I just received from them 4 weeks ago... big difference. They aren't as pretty as Wes' pics though! :)

[img width=318 height=450]http://lh3.ggpht.com/_zt4WGDQKVfs/S7hG9DcSv-I/AAAAAAAAAZw/uKHzuV4p1ag/s640/Fullbore%20National%20Championship%20barrel.jpg[/img] This one is my 2007 vintage F-T/R Barrel that won the US Fullbore National Championships.

[img width=365 height=450]http://lh3.ggpht.com/_zt4WGDQKVfs/S7hG9FW2OGI/AAAAAAAAAZ0/_i_4zWhYRlo/12FTR%20Barrel%20zoom.jpg[/img] This one was one I got ~4 weeks ago... big difference.



The spec. for bore diameter on the F-T/R barrels is .300-.302". The first one that I received from them I measured at .3015 and it shot like a house afire. The new "Palma" barrels spec. out at .298-.300, a little tighter, but until recently, have only been available in 1:13 twist. After some badgering by the Team Savage guys, they are now developing a "tight" 1:12 barrel (the same .298-.300" bore).

Hope this helps, Happy Easter All!

Darrell

PS. Do I turn into a pumpkin after 10 posts again with the "basic" membership here?

[bluealtered]

By the way Wes, welcome aboard. As you can see there are a lot of people here who will help with any questions/problems you have. I'm glad your going to try it first. I have found that mine shoot better without cleaning all the time once broken in. blue

[beradon]

You got a good one - My Precision Carbines was worse but who knows, yours might be a shooter. Mine wasn't

[Wes_VB]

Finally got to shoot the rifle today.
Took 100 rds to the range 50 of which were 147g FMJBT M80 pulled surplus. My thinking was that these are a steel jacketed copper washed bullet and they would be good for barrel break in.
I am normally not a believer in barrel break in but I thought maybe this barrel needed a little smoothing out.
Fired 5 and cleaned. I did this 4 times but after the first two five round sets the copper was noticeably diminished.
Fired the next 25 without cleaning and then cleaned and used the last five to foul the barrel for the next 50 which were load ladder rounds.
Even after the 25 it took one patch soaked in KG12 for 10 strokes and then a nylon brush soaked in KG for 15 strokes and the barrel was clean.
In short the barrel didn't collect near as much copper as I thought it would.
Didn't really get anywhere on the load development because the wind got up to 20-30mph gusts.
I went ahead and worked through the 50 trying to compensate for the wind. Nothing to brag about for group size as everything was spread along the horizontal for a couple of inches. My vertical dispersion was under .6" though for the best loads. These were shot at 210 yards.
I did find one load that produced an ES of 21 and an SD of 8 so I'll be working around that load. I did see some promise though before the wind got up. The M80s were shooting into about .7" at 100 yards. These bullets have a standard weight deviation of 3.5g and I won't even shoot them in my 03A3 Garand/Springfield match gun so .7" is quite good.
Cleaned the rifle well when I got it home after the 55 rounds and it cleans as easy as any rifle I own.
So....I would say that this barrel is fine. Looking forward to getting loads dialed in and shooting it in F class!

I don't have Dental pic but I did drag the sharp corner of a 1/16" punch down the grooves and you can definitely feel the striations.

[wbm]

Sounds good so far. Bet it ends up being a shooter. Keep us posted for sure!

[scaxeman]

My vertical dispersion was under .6" though for the best loads. These were shot at 210 yards.

.6" vertical at 200 yards is a good start. If you are getting that size group with a bullet/velocity that'll be happy at 1000 yards, you might have a winner. It'd be interesting to see what that group does on a calm day!

Good shooting,

Darrell

[TnTom]

Can't imagine not packing it up and sending it back. Barrel life isn't going to be squat,copper fouling, and carbon build up will be a way of life with that barrel. Savage just doesn't want to throw them in the scrap barrel. That's where it belongs. Pathetic machining.

[borg]

Can't imagine not packing it up and sending it back. Barrel life isn't going to be squat,copper fouling, and carbon build up will be a way of life with that barrel. Savage just doesn't want to throw them in the scrap barrel. That's where it belongs. Pathetic machining.

Did you read the entire thread?

[TnTom]

And just how many barrels have YOU manufactured?

I machined long enough to know when a too'l isnt cutting like it should.