12 F/TR quality PIC ADDED

[Wes_VB]

I just received a new 12 F/TR chambered in 308.
I was horrified when I looked down the barrel.
It is rings for as far as I can see down the barrel. I don't know if it is tool chatter or leftover from the drilling operation. The lands look very very shallow and it measures about .302 on my muzzle gauge.
What the heck...over? I expected so much after hearing so many good reports and what I received enforces every bad thing I ever heard about Savage QC.
I have not fired the rifle and it will be headed back to Savage shortly for either a new barrel or an exchange rifle.
I'm confident that they will make it right but EXTREMELY dissapointed that something like this could even get out the door.

I know 1st post and all. I will take some pics before I box the rifle back up.

[img width=600 height=406]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v480/Addivb/targets/WES_4256.jpg[/img]

[McKinneyMike]

Agree that it should not happen, but it is not the norm. I have had great luck with them so far.

[memilanuk]

I&#39;ll agree they look &#39;questionable&#39; - even the barrels we (Team Savage) get sometimes do. It&#39;s a production gun <shrug> There isn&#39;t anything materially different between the barrel you&#39;re looking at and the ones that have taken medals at national/international events and set various records...

I&#39;d strongly suggest you shoot it first, and judge it afterwards.

[Wes_VB]

I&#39;ll agree they look &#39;questionable&#39; - even the barrels we (Team Savage) get sometimes do. It&#39;s a production gun <shrug> There isn&#39;t anything materially different between the barrel you&#39;re looking at and the ones that have taken medals at national/international events and set various records...

I&#39;d strongly suggest you shoot it first, and judge it afterwards.

OK. I&#39;ll give it a shot. Knowing your background with the rifles I will definitely shoot it first.
It is very suspect looking. I can&#39;t imagine this thing not collecting massive amounts of copper. The top of the lands look like a file.
And with a .302 bore isn&#39;t it already halfway done?

[rjtfroggy]

I have to agree try it first. I have 9 different ones as of right now. One had what looked like a chip or burr at the crown but it is the most accurate of the bunch so far(3 still in load development), I am already looking at the next 2-3 builds and will not be looking at different brands.
SAVAGE only from now on.

[steveinwv]

My FCP-K .223 has the same rings all the way down and it lays down the law of accuracy. My wifes VLP .22-250 is the same story. Shoot it first. They&#39;ll still fix it later if you&#39;re not happy.

[LG]

Both my .308 model 10 and .223 model 12 have bores that look like railroad tracks. Still both are good shooters.

[acasto]

My 308 barrel looked just as bad, and did foul some after10-12 shots. Accuracy was acceptable for a factory rifle.
Ran a series of Tubbs Final Finish down it, and it is without a doubt, the most accurate rifle I have ever owned.
Of course, I also worked up the load for it.

I would try it also. Nothing to lose.

[memilanuk]

The barrel I won the 1200yd F/TR trophy @ Lodi in 2008 with had *very* little rifling in it. It had gotten a full Final Finish treatment early on to knock off the high spots ::) and reduce the fouling to an acceptable level.

Sometimes I wonder if the shallow rifling *not* digging big grooves in the bullet as it goes by is why so many of these barrels shoot as well as they do... they certainly seem to &#39;defy&#39; the conventional thinking about what an accurate barrel should look like.

[lucy123]

I bought a new model 16 in Feb. It has the smoothest looking bore i have seen in my 55 years. I have&#39;nt got to shoot it yet.

[Wes_VB]

OK Tell me or reassure me that this is normal for GOOD shooting savage barrels.
Looking at this it almost has to be the button chattering as it is pulled through the barrel.
Maybe it will shoot well but this barrel looks like it was cut in the worst backyard chinese sweatshop ever imagined.
On second thought it looks like it was made in a prison cell with a dull bedspring!
[img width=600 height=406]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v480/Addivb/targets/WES_4256.jpg[/img]

[dcloco]

Ummmm....send that one back.

[lucy123]

I have to agree that looks awful .Send it back.

[drybean]

must agree send it back i have a junk lathe an cut better threads than that

[LG]

I can see circular marks in the bores of some of my factory barrels. But they are not as bad as yours.

[jo191145]

I would go half way. Send that pic to Savage. Let them know your concerned/disappointed and ready to send it back but willing to try it.
At least it will be documented before firing. Does&#39;nt really matter. Savage will replace it either way.
Have to admit the two most accurate Savage 204R barrels I ever had were the two that copper fouled like crazy when new.
They were rough like sandpaper inside but no railroad tracks. Felt to me like the reamer had been run backwards.

I have two "old" 308 barrels that look worse. They are tomato stakes.

[sharpshooter]

Never judge a barrel by what it looks like inside! It doesn&#39;t have to be purty to shoot well. I&#39;ve borescoped enough Savage barrels to tell you that looks "normal".
One of last F T/R .308 barrels I checked measured .303". The customer has been shooting varmint for score matches and after I cut it to 26", he shot his first 50-5X. He been doing so well, that his other shooting buddies have had their barrels cut to 26" also. They&#39;ve been ruling in factory class.
Give it a good scrubbing and shoot it first, that&#39;s what Savage will do.

[Wes_VB]

The general consensus seems to be, "shoot it and see".
On this and the long range forum 3 members of Team Savage have weighed in and believe it to be fairly normal for a production barrel so away we go.
I guess I am going to have to ditch the preconceptions I had about what makes a precision rifle barrel. ;D

Thanks

[Live Oak]

OK. I&#39;ll give it a shot. Knowing your background with the rifles I will definitely shoot it first.
It is very suspect looking. I can&#39;t imagine this thing not collecting massive amounts of copper. The top of the lands look like a file.
And with a .302 bore isn&#39;t it already halfway done?
[/quote]

My Model 12 VLP BDM 22-250 did not look real pretty when I first got it. A friend who shoots bench rest emailed me a procedure using JB Bore Cleaning Paste and JB Bore Polish using round felt pellets mounted on a special jag. It was a very light cleaning and polish but a LOT of crud and micro metalic chips came out of the barrel. This process polished the barrel and throat up real nice and the rifle shoots extremely well in my unexperienced opinion. If you like, I can PM or email you what I did along with the part #&#39;s for the jags, rod stops, felt pellets, and bore cleaner.

[Wes_VB]

My Model 12 VLP BDM 22-250 did not look real pretty when I first got it. A friend who shoots bench rest emailed me a procedure using JB Bore Cleaning Paste and JB Bore Polish using round felt pellets mounted on a special jag. It was a very light cleaning and polish but a LOT of crud and micro metalic chips came out of the barrel. This process polished the barrel and throat up real nice and the rifle shoots extremely well in my unexperienced opinion. If you like, I can PM or email you what I did along with the part #&#39;s for the jags, rod stops, felt pellets, and bore cleaner.

I would be interested. I&#39;m little apprehensive about fire lapping. It just seems a bit drastic.
I guess either because I&#39;m new or not a paying member I cannot send PMs or see anyones profile.
dvb[at]falconbroadband.net

[pdog06]

You are correct. Since youre not a paid member you cannot see our profiles. It keep the scammers from accessing email addresses and such. You also can not initiate a pm, but if someone pm&#39;s you then you can respond and converse with them. Not sure, but I believe if someone pm&#39;s you then you may be able to see that persons profile, but not 100% sure on that.

Keep us updated on how this barrel shoots, and what Savage says if/when you call them. I think I&#39;d call them to make it known, and then shoot it and see how it does. Thats probably what they&#39;ll tell you to do anyway.

[Carvera]

Fred states; "Never judge a barrel by what it looks inside".

If this is the norm, would a custom barrel maker stay in business if they took that approach?

I can somewhat understand a mass produced rifle looking like that, but what about a custom barrel.

Would one not question quality, craftmanship, pride, if they received a barrel that didn&#39;t look like work they paid hundreds of dollars for? When paying for one of Savage&#39;s higher priced rifles, is it too much to ask for the rifle to look as if "it was well cared for" upon assembly?

I know that I&#39;m not comparing apples with apples, just seeking additional clarification.

If it were mine, I&#39;d send it back. Savage will do as Fred says, and they will fire it. But I would assume that they would not leave that barrel on your rifle knowing that you&#39;ve brought to their attention how "ugly" that thing looks.

They want you to be impressed with all facets of their products.At least that&#39;s what I would assume?

[gmidbrod]

I would say that barrel is going to be a horrid fouling machine at the least, even if it shoots well. I don&#39;t care for all the fouling myself.

[fatdaddy]

I would bet that this barrel will look alot different after the, often mentioned,100 round mark. I have several that were nasty looking copper collectors at first but smoothed up with some shooting. Groups should tighten up as well. I dont believe wearing a barrel out cleaning it either, just when the groups open up. The first cleaning session will most likely show a lot of blue patches, but Id bet it&#39;ll surprise ya. Shoot that pig.... Bill

[Live Oak]

A couple of folks have PM&#39;d me about the bore polishing procedure I mentioned in my post above and asked me to post it to the forum. Let me preface what I am NOOBIE to this, no I didn&#39;t sleep in a Holiday Inn last night, and this seems to have worked well for me. I am by no means an expert in this area, however it makes sense to me that a smooth polished bore would tend to accumulate copper and lead fouling much less than a raw bore after the machining process. Anyhow, a friend who shoots benchrest suggested this to me so I cannot take credit for it. Not sure if he posts on this board but he goes by TresMon. I sure do appreciate the help, mentoring, and instruction Tres! This bore polishing procedure may not be for or agree with all but it sure did remove an unbelievable amount of crud and micro-metalic tooling debry that was left in my factor savage barrel. Below is the polishing procedure he suggested to me:



Here is the email a friend sent me that I followed. A point he did not mention that I noticed while polishing the barrel was that I could feel the gradual and very noticable reduction in restistance to running the cleaning rod and jag through the bore as it cleaned up. It did not take too much elbow grease but it cleaned up the bore real nice.

Another thing I use is the Possum Hollow Bore Cleaning Guides and Solvent Ports. They are really good about keeping solvent and bore cleaning paste out of the chamber and off the stock. I believe your F/TR takes the #5 bore guide:

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct...tnumber=594165

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct...tnumber=670764

I have checked and Brownells is the only place who sells the felt pellets and bore past. At least when I checked then.

The web links are good, you can just cross reference over to the correct size for your F/TR .308.

The primary crux is to smooth up the tooling flaws and remove the metalic debry from the machining process.

Below is the cut and past email they use on the .223 WSSM:


Here&#39;s what you need to keep the throat in the 223WSSM polished and lasting as long as possible.

Here is the web page from Brownell&#39;s that lists the stuff you&#39;ll need

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/sto...STEM%20PELLETS


You need the top part number : 22 cal plain felt pellets

In the top of that page, the description, you&#39;ll see "JB bore-cleaner" highlighted. click on that; you&#39;ll need a tub of JB.
It&#39;s the actual bore polishing compound.


And you need the holder for the pellets which is the 4th one down here- 8-32 adapter:

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/sto...LLET%20ADAPTER





On this page http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/sto...%20ROD%20STOPS you&#39;ll need a set of "rod stops."



Once you get this stuff, clean your barrel perfectly clean. (If you don&#39;t know how to truly clean your barrel to "as if it&#39;s never been fired" clean, don&#39;t feel bad, most guys don&#39;t know how & what to use. If you don&#39;t- just ask and i will line you up on that too!

With the barrel clean...
Push one more patch soaked with bore solvent or oil through the bore to coat it with fluid...

Screw the pellet holder on the cleaning rod(Don&#39;t put pellets on yet) Slide the rod stops on the rod.

Slide the rod down the bore untill the pellet holder (called a "jag") is perfectly flush with the end of the barrel.
Now set the rod stops against the back of the bore guide.

This way as your stroking back and forth with the JB polish, the felt pellets do not come out of the end of the barrel. (If they do come out the end of the barrel, it will rip them off the jag when you reverse directions and pull them back in.)

Screw three pellets onto the pellet jag, and rub a good coat of JB paste into and onto the pellets.

Now push the rod/pellets into the bore. It will be tight at first, but that&#39;s good.

Now here&#39;s the stroke order (in general, doesn&#39;t not have to be exact, just go for it, I do it fast and furious and get it over with.)


1.Push in about 6-10" (the throat area) and pull back out.

2.Push in about half way down the barrel and pull back out.

3.Then push all the way in (down the whole barrel)

Repeat this pattern a dozen or so times, then:

A. Now take off the pellet jag. Put on the patch jag.

B. Push about 3-4 bore solvent or gun oil soaked patches all the way through the bore to wash out the used polishing paste.

C. Put the pellet jag back on with the used pellets, re-coat them with fresh JB Bore Polish. and repeat the stroke pattern with the pellets.

Do this whole cycle about three times.

The first three felt pellets may or may not last for the whole polishing cycle. You&#39;ll be able to tell. They&#39;ll be really loose fitting in the bore and will be coming apart. You&#39;ll know if you need to change them.

Now you have a clean and micro polished bore, which will make the barrel last quite a bit longer than if just shot to death, or shot and just "minimally cleaned from time to time."

When your done with your bore polishing, push 3+ more oil soaked patches through the bore to clean out the JB. (note, I used CRC brake spray cleaner followed with a very lightly oiled patch)
Then push one or two dry patches through to take out most the oil. (This will leave a super light coat of oil in the bore which is good. Too much oil left causes bad accuracy.)

Your done.