Savage Accuracy Info Needed

[joeb33050]

Savage Accuracy Info Needed

I shoot mostly cast bullets, mostly from Savage 10 and 12 Models with various barrels.
To check that the rifle/barrel is accurate, I pick a lower velocity load from a manual and load some with powder and jacketed bullets that I have on hand. Normally 15 to 25 cartridges are loaded, sighting in with five and shooting the others for five shot groups at 100 yards. There is no load development, I’m looking for an indication about accuracy.
In .22 caliber center fire my jacketed results have been, (“):

Savage 12 BVSS, 11/29/03 Sierra 52 gr HPBT match #1410, 22/IMR4198, .825, .55, .5
Savage 12FV 2/13/13 223 Rem Horn 60gr VMAX, 25/Varget .85, .875
4/2/14 Horn 55 gr. Vmax, 25 Varget 1.025, 1.125
Savage 10, 223 Rem 22" sporter bbl, 2/19/14 Horn 55 gr Vmax, 25/Varget, 1.45
2/26/14 Horn 55 gr Vmax, 23/IMR4895, 1.4, 1.2
Savage 10 22-250 hvy varmint bbl, 2/5/14, Horn 55 gr Vmax, 34/Varget, .8, 1.4

The average for these 12 groups is 1.000”.

A fellow on the CBA forum says that: “Those 22 CF jacketed groups are shameful…”, and suggests that my rifles/barrels are inaccurate.
If this is true, I’ll just have to throw the rifles and barrels away, they’ll never shoot cast bullets accurately.
But, before taking it all to the dump, I thought to ask here about YOUR results. Here’s the question:

What STARTING accuracy do you get/have you gotten for 5 shot 100 yard groups with Savage rifles in .22 or any caliber? What’s the accuracy of those first few groups, before load development?
Please help me with this, either post here or PM me, I’ll keep your responses confidential.
Otherwise, all this iron goes to the big landfill.
Thanks;
joe b.

[cranebird]

Savage Accuracy Info Neede


A fellow on the CBA forum says that: “Those 22 CF jacketed groups are shameful…”, and suggests that my rifles/barrels are inaccurate.
If this is true, I’ll just have to throw the rifles and barrels away, they’ll never shoot cast bullets accurately.
But, before taking it all to the dump, I thought to ask here about YOUR results. Here’s the question:

What are the odds of buying 4 defective rifles ? Y You almost have to ask yourself if there could possibly be another defective part of the equation ?

[boostless]

Since your just throwing loads together and not doing any load development I would say they are just fine. Any reloads I do I try to do load development to get the best out of them. I'm no expert at all but I seen no reason to "junk" any of your barrels.

[GaryBF]

Many factors affect group size besides barrel quality, e.g. ammunition, rest stability, trigger quality/control, scope power/quality, consistency of head position, shooter experience, etc., etc.

Don't be too quick to condemn your rifles.

[bootsmcguire]

I have had Savage factory, several brands and makes of custom barrels, and several other brands of factory tubes and actions. I have yet to see more than only one barrel so far that shot less than 1/2 MOA on a thrown together load with no load development. I have had several do MOA and less with various random loads, which seems to be the average that you are getting, so I would not discontinue use of these barrels until you give them a fair chance. Most of mine have given me less than 1/2MOA with proper load development.

[big honkin jeep]

Lots of " Internet Dead Eyes " out there.
Their skills and equipment will always be superior to yours.
Most of them have super fancy "custom" stuff but even their factory out of the box stuff is amazingly amazing.
You'll never be competitive.
LOL

I'm convinced that you can not get an indication of a rifles accuracy without load development or at least trying a couple of factory offerings.
Several experiences over the years have led me to this conclusion. I have a rifle that has fired a 9" shotgun looking pattern with a horrible factory load, put a good factory load around an inch and put handloads into one tiny ragged hole all in the same range session. Load development and a little luck finding what they like is everything when it comes to accuracy, especially once you are looking to tighten em below an inch.

[joeb33050]

What STARTING accuracy do you get/have you gotten for 5 shot 100 yard groups with Savage rifles in .22 or any caliber? What’s the accuracy of those first few groups, before load development?

Anyone have any records of these kind of group sizes? I won't make your responses public if you don't want. Some of you guys must have records.
Thanks;
joe b.

[joeb33050]

Lots of " Internet Dead Eyes " out there.
Their skills and equipment will always be superior to yours.
Most of them have super fancy "custom" stuff but even their factory out of the box stuff is amazingly amazing.
You'll never be competitive.
LOL


I understand this. Other people shoot smaller groups, cast better bullets faster, shoot higher scores, reload more precisely and are able to leap tall buildings with fewer bounds than I. "Keyboard wizards". I'm disheartened and jealous.


I'm convinced that you can not get an indication of a rifles accuracy without load development or at least trying a couple of factory offerings.
Several experiences over the years have led me to this conclusion. I have a rifle that has fired a 9" shotgun looking pattern with a horrible factory load, put a good factory load around an inch and put handloads into one tiny ragged hole all in the same range session. Load development and a little luck finding what they like is everything when it comes to accuracy, especially once you are looking to tighten em below an inch.

I think that first-try-big-groups don't tell us much, and that load development may shrink groups. BUT, if I want to know if a barrel will shoot reasonably accurately with cast bullets, and if I try a reasonable load, and the gun/barrel shoots around 1"; then I'm reasonably sure that the gun/barrel are able to shoot cast bullets reasonably well. In .30, .32, .40 and .45 caliber it's worked for me. (I would add that I've shot possibly 100 jacketed bullets, total, since 2000. Mostly cast bullets.)

[JW]

Interesting read Joe
Not sure if this will help but:
I am usually starting load development on the first outing with a new rifle
I will have one bullet loaded with the full range of powder loads
I seldom have a group over 1 1/2 (3shots)
I chase the smallest group from there
I might add that I have messed with 22 rimfire a little and seen a very large difference in group size dependent on the ammo used
I have only seen one rimfire shoot fairly well with several kinds of ammo and it was an Anschutz bench gun $$
All this said, all my rifles seem to shoot 1 1/2 or better on initial fire but as others have said, 1/2" or better is the norm after working the load
I hope this helps


Jack

[Luke45]

I've had savages where the first 5 shots out of them touched, and others that took multiple trips the range to tune to get even below 1 inch groups. Your groups are fine especially if you haven't even done load development

[strafer]

Maybe I've been lucky, but both my Savages have been very accurate right out of the box, and even more so with load development. I love both my rifles!

Here are some initial results at 100 yards, factory ammo, 5 shots:

Savage 12 FCV in 22-250 Rem:

-Using Federal PSP 55gr, group size 0.898"


-Using Federal V-Shok 55 gr Nosler Ballistic Tip, group size 0.627"


After load development-
40 gr Sierra Blitzking
39.0 gr H380
CCI 250 large rifle mag primer
Oal (ogive):2.044"
4021 fps
Six shots, 100 yards group size 0.344"




Savage 10 FCP-K in .223 Rem:

-using PMC 55 gr BTFMJ, group size ~1.0"

Note: using this same pmc factory ammo I hit a quarter at 300 yards in 5 tries

After load development:
40 gr Hornady Vmax
22.0 gr IMR 4198
WSR primer
3600 fps
Oal (ogive): 1.906"
Six shots 100 yard group size: 0.520"



Best regards,
Strafer

[joeb33050]

Thanks, just what we need. Anyone else have numbers or pictures?
Thanks;
joe b.