Black around case necks on my gun, but not on others?

**upSLIDEdown** · 06-25-2014, 05:58 PM

So I went out shooting with some buddies the other day, and one was shooting a Remington. Myself and my other buddy both shoot Savages. I've always noticed black residue around my case necks on fired brass. My buddy with the Remington was shooting was shooting Federal GMM, and I put one round of it through my buddies Savage to see what his gun felt like with the brake he just added. I ended up with a box of brasss, and I noticed the brass from the Remington was much cleaner around the case necks than the one I shot from my buddy's Savage, and that's also the way my stuff always looks...

What causes this?

The Remington was a Rem. Custom Shop 40-XS
Savage was a 10FCP-SR I think?
And my gun is an Axis

These are the same two cases, I just rolled them to get a full circumference view. The light washed it out a little, so it doesn't look as dark, but you can still see the black on the case neck on the right.

cranebird · 06-25-2014, 06:56 PM

I had or possibly still have the same problem and the only thing I can think of at this time is that when I ran the nylon brush back and forth through the bore and it swept the loose bore crap into the neck/chamber area on the brush retrieve and I didn't get it mopped out all that well. Since my scrubbing the rifle bore/chamber down with 50/50 kroil/bore cleaner solution, I've been pushing the nylon brush through and then unscrewing it and retracting the cleaning rod and it seems to be working on keeping the problem from resurfacing. I was thinking the loads were too low pressured that the neck wasn't expanding and sealing but with the powder charges loaded beyond max listings and the black on the necks still remained, that sort of ruled that idea out ...... Hopefully someone has the answer.

**fgw_in_fla** · 06-25-2014, 06:56 PM

Case neck expansion when the propellant is ignited. Its more prominent with lighter charges where the hot gases will bypass the case neck when torched off. I guess if the chamber is a little loose / out of spec it could happen as well.

I had it happen on a 223wssm using brand new brass. I had to anneal all the new cases to soften the necks a little.
Nothing serious. Just a little extra cleaning.

**scope eye** · 06-25-2014, 07:02 PM

[QUOTE=fgw_in_fla;268162]Case neck expansion when the propellant is ignited. Its more prominent with lighter charges where the hot gases will bypass the case neck when torched off. I guess if the chamber is a little loose / out of spec it could happen as well."

You see the perfect argument to run hot loads, that is why I run them hot, so my case necks don't turn black, no for real I swear.

Spanky

**fgw_in_fla** · 06-25-2014, 07:11 PM

I just came back to my office to put in a PS...

PS - Unless you load 'em like Deano. Then you don't have to worry about enough expansion, you have to worry about the end of the barrel bulging.

cranebird · 06-25-2014, 07:29 PM

Dean, you need to start a reloading seminar and make it quick. I am not grasping this reloading concept as quickly as I should be.

**fgw_in_fla** · 06-25-2014, 08:05 PM

Originally Posted by cranebird

Dean, you need to start a reloading seminar and make it quick. I am not grasping this reloading concept as quickly as I should be.

If I may respond for my esteemed colleague....
It's not as hard as you may think. there's 2 methods.
Method 1) Fill the case with a specified powder, tap the side to settle the powder and top it off, hammer in the bullet. After loading, attach string to trigger and stand in a bunker 40 to 50 feet away before firing. This is known as the Scope Eye Pack and Blast method.
OR...
Method 2) Read your manual, read it again then read the ABC's of Reloading twice. Ask questions here as needed. No bunker or string required....
See?
Just like I said. It's as easy as A-B-C.

**thermaler** · 06-25-2014, 08:16 PM

Originally Posted by fgw_in_fla

I just came back to my office to put in a PS...

PS - Unless you load 'em like Deano. Then you don't have to worry about enough expansion, you have to worry about the end of the barrel bulging.

True--but not everyone can drop a buck at 10,000 yds with a 22LR.

**fgw_in_fla** · 06-25-2014, 08:18 PM

10,000yds?
He's shortened up the range on those a little bit, eh?...

**upSLIDEdown** · 06-25-2014, 10:18 PM

Yeah, this was with factory loads, but I'm pretty sure I still get it with my handloads, just didn't pay attention to it til I saw some cases without it... My load is 44.2gr of Varget in an FC case (308). Primers are pretty dang flat.

**drybean** · 06-25-2014, 10:40 PM

Tighter neck, nothing to worry about

**thermaler** · 06-26-2014, 02:53 AM

I just took a much closer look at your pictures--there is something odd about the cases you show--the ones on the right appear to me to be "misshapen" compared to the ones on the left if this is truly the same ammo shot through different guns. It may be just the way the pics are taken and my bad eyes are seeing an optical illusion--but I see an odd little rim on the case mouth on the savage-chambered case; as well as the case looks deformed in other ways--the shoulder area looks like it has flowed and the angles don't look as sharp as the case on the left. the rest of the case looks "bulgy" as well. I would get the calipers out and measure all the case dimensions to see if you're within specs--though flattened primers are usually a good indicator something isn't right (assuming that is happening on standard factory loads). The remmie may simply have a tighter chamber--the brass on the left looks to me like new unfired brass.

**FW Conch** · 06-26-2014, 06:26 AM

If it made a hole in the paper (target), it's not a problem.

JMHO.......Jim :-))

**fgw_in_fla** · 06-26-2014, 06:48 AM

^What he said^
And if I may add...
If the soot covers the upper half of the case, concern yourself otherwise, I wouldn't really worry about either. I find a little soot on case necks occasionally with home rolled loads. Sometimes even after annealing.
Just a little extra cleaning to do,

**FW Conch** · 06-26-2014, 09:45 AM

I have seen this happen and not happen on the same rifle depending on the powder used. It happens often when I use Alliant powder and not when I use Hodgdon or IMR. Alliant also leaves particles in the bore. But if the load shoots accurately, I don't concern myself with it.

Looking at your buddy's case, it appears that he may have a tighter chamber, which could explain why sooting happened on yours and not his,shooting the same round.

But, as alluded to above, if your factory rifle shoots around 1 MOA or less, a little soot means nothing....Jim

emtrescue6 · 06-26-2014, 02:21 PM

Originally Posted by fgw_in_fla

If I may respond for my esteemed colleague....
It's not as hard as you may think. there's 2 methods.
Method 1) Fill the case with a specified powder, tap the side to settle the powder and top it off, hammer in the bullet. After loading, attach string to trigger and stand in a bunker 40 to 50 feet away before firing. This is known as the Scope Eye Pack and Blast method.
OR...
Method 2) Read your manual, read it again then read the ABC's of Reloading twice. Ask questions here as needed. No bunker or string required....
See?
Just like I said. It's as easy as A-B-C.

What type hammer do we need for this method? I am getting ready to do some shopping...

**fgw_in_fla** · 06-26-2014, 03:21 PM

How many times do I have to tell you...

cranebird · 06-26-2014, 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by emtrescue6

What type hammer do we need for this method? I am getting ready to do some shopping...

I picked one up at a yard sale for $3.The barrel nut community reloading hammer, who do I send it to first ?

Do you realize how stupid I feel from thinking that unscrewing the nylon brush every pass through the barrel was helping ?

That is time wasted that I'll never get back.....

**fgw_in_fla** · 06-26-2014, 04:42 PM

I have a full set of reloading hammers.
Ask around. I'm sure someone can use it.

emtrescue6 · 06-26-2014, 05:35 PM

hahahaahha oh my, I needed a good laugh!

emtrescue6 · 06-26-2014, 05:37 PM

Originally Posted by cranebird

I picked one up at a yard sale for $3.The barrel nut community reloading hammer, who do I send it to first ?

Do you realize how stupid I feel from thinking that unscrewing the nylon brush every pass through the barrel was helping ?

That is time wasted that I'll never get back.....

The Scope Eye Special!

Waaaaaaaaaait.....you don't unscrew the brush every pass anymore? Oh Heaaaaall no! :dazed&cornfussed:

**scope eye** · 06-26-2014, 05:40 PM

Are you guys done yet, it is that time of the month and I am very sensitive you know.

No Signature

cranebird · 06-26-2014, 06:20 PM

Originally Posted by emtrescue6

The Scope Eye Special!

Waaaaaaaaaait.....you don't unscrew the brush every pass anymore? Oh Heaaaaall no! :dazed&cornfussed:

**fgw_in_fla** · 06-26-2014, 07:05 PM

I think we're done now.

Guys?
Are we done tormenting Deano? I don't want to see him on the 6 o'clock news trying to commit suicide by jumping out a basement window or anything like that.

We're all sorry Dean.
Really we are.
Here. Have a nice bacon wrapped boneless chicken breast. Smoked to perfection as the delicate thin cloud of Apple wood smoke dances around it: