7mm v. 30's for an Longer Range Elk rifle

[cowboyarcher]

This discussion started over in classifieds, figured I'd better move it over here!

Looking at 7mm Berger 180's v. .30 cal Nosler Accubond 200's and Berger 210's.

Reason I am seeking trade: I realize the 30's, and ultimatly the 338's do a better job of carrying energy at long range.

With the exception of the 338 the 30's don't really don't do anything the 7mm bore size doesn't do better. Right now I'm shooting a 7mm magnum with Berger 180's at 2900fps. Ballistics wise the 30's just can't keep up with it at 1000.

Are you talking drop or energy Bill?

I am showing a 300 WM at 3100 fps (probably too gerenous) with the Berger 210's dropping 233" at 1000 yards. and it carries 2000 ft/lbs to 700 yards or so.

The 7 WSM is sending the 180's at 3000 fps, dropping 244" at 1000 yards, and carrying 2000 ft/lbs to about 550 yards.

A hot 338 will beat them both handily in the energy department.

It's not the drop that concerns me, I want a ton of energy to hit that elk.

Maybe my caluclations are off!

Anyhow, at this time, I am leaning heavily towards a 300 Win Mag, on a LA.

Maybe my calculations are off!

They are indeed. Berger 180g VLD with a BC=.659 at 3000fps 3.5" high at 100 for a zero at 300 is moving 1735fps at 1000 with a drop of -213" 500 yard energy is 2150!

The .338 Lapua is just superb! Nothing below it can match it at 1000 plus for sure. Have a friend who is shooting the 250g Lapua Scenar BC=.675 at 2900fps. Tie up the dog put the kids in the house and hang on...SCREAMING round! ;D

[cowboyarcher]

I should also say I want a common round for ease of ammo finding. I guess we should restrict the discussion to the 7mm Rem Mag, 7mm WSM, 300 Win Mag, and 300 WSM.

And the issue with the WSM's is they don't feed fell from a staggered feed, everything is really expensive, and they won't fit in short mag box's with the bullets we're talking about. I'm also already set up for the belted mags in terms of brass and reloading.

What are max speeds guys are getting from a 7mm Rem with the 180's? Accuracy aside at this point. Fastest I seem is 3010, but that seems slow since guys are getting 3100 with 200's from the 300 Win.

[tammons]

With a good shot I doubt its going to matter much.
The 7mm will have better BC, a bit more SD, but a bit heavier bullet with the 300 mag.

Still if your shot is inside 400 yards there shouldnt be a huge difference in holdoff depending.

I think the benefit to the 300 is if you want to load it up with heavier round nose ammo.

If you are looking for easy ammo to find, I would think the 300 win mag would be the easiest to find.

[EFBell]

I shoot 180 swift scirrocos out of my 300WSM at just under 3100 FPS with Reloader 19 from my model 10 controlled feed. Dropped a large wildebeast where it stood. Only ever shot 140's out of my 7MM WSM. Dont think you will get 3100 with 300 WSM and 200's. I never had any feeding issues with mine.

[wbm]

Have had four Savages in 300WSM. All of them were among the most consistently accurate rifles I have ever owned. The last one would shoot the Federal Fusion 165g factory round as good or better than anything I ever reloaded. Did a 10 shot group with the Fusion one day that was less than .650". Tried the same ammunition in my son's Savage center feed, accustock....five rounds at .375"! Bottom line is that the 300WSM was and is a very good idea on the part of Winchester.

[EFBell]

Have had four Savages in 300WSM. All of them were among the most consistently accurate rifles I have ever owned. The last one would shoot the Federal Fusion 165g factory round as good or better than anything I ever reloaded. Did a 10 shot group with the Fusion one day that was less than .650". Tried the same ammunition in my son's Savage center feed, accustock....five rounds at .375"! Bottom line is that the 300WSM was and is a very good idea on the part of Winchester.

Agreed! My "budget" model 10 with a timney trigger shoots much better than I do. The 180 grain Scirroco bullets are a great choice for long range hunting and up close they hold together without major meat damage on deer sized game.

[xhogboss]

The 7mm will have better BC,

+1 The higher BC usually equates to a greater potential for accuracy. A lot of the info about long-range hunting semms to favor the 7mm over the 30 caliber. If you choose copper bullets over lead-core, bearing surface can become a factor also. Copper bullets of the same diameter have to be longer to achieve the same weight. Longer bullets generally mean longer bearing surfaces.

There is some good information about caliber, twist rate and bullet selection here: http://www.cactustactical.com/reloading/tips5.pdf Substitute 'tips1' (thru 4) in the URL to see the other pages.

[dcloco]

I would still go with the 300 Win Mag. I own a 7 mag (and LIKE it a lot), but would still go with the 300 Win Mag for extended distances on game. 190 gr or heavier bullets would be good medicine.

[ThorBird]

Just FYI. If you go to Berger's website, they have video of there hunting bullets in action. One of the shots they show is a 700 plus yard shot on an elk with, I believe, the 7MM 180 Berger. They might have been using an ultra mag or an STW, but it dropped in its tracks. Not that a .30 wouldn't do the same, but that was with a 7mm bullet.

[xhogboss]

The Best of The West is one site for info on long-range hunting. There is a link to a ballistic calculator that may help decide which bullet/caliber combination delivers the best downrange performance. I've watched TBTW videos, and I think they used a 7STW for the bigger animals, with the Berger bullets. Just another place to look.....

[Budweiser360]

When I first saw this, the only thing that came to mind was 7mm STW. A friend of mine has one that he uses for F-class and he sends 180 Bergers at about 3200. So that has 1400ft-lbs of energy at 1000 and a drop of 212", at 600 yards it has 2200ft-lbs and a drop of 57".

Of course if you want to shoot factory ammo you will be, for the most part, SOL. I would have to recommend handloading for that sort of distance anyway, only way you will be able to get the same results consistently.

[cowboyarcher]

Well guys, I ended up ordering a 300 win mag barrel. I'm going to run 200 grn accubonds, assuming it likes them. I'll probably try some bergers, and barnes through it at some point. It tough to find a tougher bullet than the AB, with a similar BC though.

I ran the numbers on a 180grn Berger (.284) at 3200 fps, a 210 Berger (.308) at 3100 fps, and an 200 grn Accubond (.308) at 3100 fps, assuning 350 yards zeros.

Here's what I am seeing:

180 grn - at 500 yards: 16.1" drop and 2500 ft/lbs of KE.
- at 1000 yards: 174" drop and 1429 ft/lbs of KE.

210 grn - at 500 yards: 17.6" drop and 2652 ft/lbs of KE.
- at 1000 yards: 191" drop and 1457 ft/lbs of KE.

200 grn - at 500 yards: 17" of drop and 2563 ft/lbs of KE.
- at 1000 yards: 189" drop and 1332 ft/lbs of KE.

Clearly the higher BC of the .284 is winning the battle at long range. Past 1000 yards, it should be in front.

But, I have yet to hear a guide recommnd a Berger for use on elk. I know the guys use them on TV, but I am not convinced. I doubt anyone would argue that the Accubond is inferior to the Berger on big critters.

Realistically, I should never need a shot over 500 yards anyway, not in the terrain here.

The other reason I choosen the 300, is because I can still add 30-40 grns to my bullet weight, if I need to. The 284 about maxed oout at 180grns. I know there are heavier, but they are hard to find, and a standard twist probably wouldn't handle them.


Oh, and I forgot to mention, I already have a 270, and it preforms to simillary to a .284 for me!