Bonded bullets

[barrel-nut]

You just stated in a much better way, the point I have been trying to make

Thanks Luke, and I do understand what you're saying, and even agree to a point, but I just don't trust bullets like SST's or Ballistic Tips, due to their occasionally quirky behavior, and the idea that i don't like my sausage flavored with lead. But you are absolutely correct that "premium" bullets are not necessary for deer hunting. They are, however, what some folks prefer to use, and that's all good.

How's that for riding the fence?? Lol.

[Londerko]

I'm a big fan of the gameking and prohunter, never used the SST. I've always thought of the nosler ballistic tip as more of a "coyote" type bullet.

[Luke45]

Thanks Luke, and I do understand what you're saying, and even agree to a point, but I just don't trust bullets like SST's or Ballistic Tips, due to their occasionally quirky behavior, and the idea that i don't like my sausage flavored with lead. But you are absolutely correct that "premium" bullets are not necessary for deer hunting. They are, however, what some folks prefer to use, and that's all good.

How's that for riding the fence?? Lol.

I definitly respect your choices and sound logic !

[daniel87]

Op that is your personal opinion.
But I call bull.
Like all things shot placement is king.
The bonded fed fuzion did tremendous damage to. Two white tail last season in .308 at 50 yards.

[Londerko]

At 50 yds it didn't matter, they wouldn't have been any less dead with bullets or ammo 1/4 of the price

[daniel87]

At 50 yds it didn't matter, they wouldn't have been any less dead with bullets or ammo 1/4 of the price

The op said bonded dont work well. That bonded is bad on medium size game

If the op wants to discuss longer range than discuss the range


I said
. They work

[Luke45]

Op that is your personal opinion.
But I call bull.
Like all things shot placement is king.
The bonded fed fuzion did tremendous damage to. Two white tail last season in .308 at 50 yards.

If it works for you and you have confidence in it then great! I have had good luck with lighter constructed bullets on deer sized game, never wounded one with light constructed bullets, and almost exclusively one hit kills dead on impact.I

[Code4]

Bonded bullets and all copper bullets are completely pointless for medium deer sized and smaller game, they will actually kill them slower than a traditional bullet. If you use these on this sized or smaller game you are wasting money and actually being less efficient.

I keep seeing commercials, adds in magazine, ect thT are basically saying you need a bonded bullet all game for 90% weight retention blah blah blah and it's annoying and false

I totally agree based on my experience in the field.

[JASmith]

...Sectional density plays a significant part in terminal ballistics

Absolutely correct!

The issue is WHICH sectional density counts -- the free-flying bullet? or the deformed bullet?

Answer:

• The SD of the free-flying bullet helps define the ballistic coefficient. The BC, coupled with the MV, and range, are the dominant players in defining the start of the terminal ballistics phase.

How often do we look at a recovered bullet and wonder "When did it expand to that new shape?" That happens within inches of impact.

• The penetration phase is dominated by the sectional density of the deformed bullet.

[Luke45]

Absolutely correct!

The issue is WHICH sectional density counts -- the free-flying bullet? or the deformed bullet?

Answer:

• The SD of the free-flying bullet helps define the ballistic coefficient. The BC, coupled with the MV, and range, are the dominant players in defining the start of the terminal ballistics phase.

How often do we look at a recovered bullet and wonder "When did it expand to that new shape?" That happens within inches of impact.

• The penetration phase is dominated by the sectional density of the deformed bullet.

Strait off harnadys website
"A bullet’s sectional density also affects the amount of damage it can cause. Sectional density (a bullet’s weight in pounds divided by its diameter squared) describes a bullet’s length for its diameter: The higher the number, the longer the bullet. Generally speaking, the larger a bullet’s sectional density, the deeper it will penetrate."
And again
"Expansion can be controlled by the bullet’s tip design and by the jacket construction. Rapidly expanding bullets create a wider wound channel, displacing even more tissue and increasing temporary cavitation, but they also increase drag, thus requiring more energy and momentum to drive through tissue, and in general don’t penetrate as deeply as bullets designed to expand more slowly"

[JASmith]

Strait off harnadys website
"A bullet’s sectional density also affects the amount of damage it can cause. Sectional density (a bullet’s weight in pounds divided by its diameter squared) describes a bullet’s length for its diameter: The higher the number, the longer the bullet. Generally speaking, the larger a bullet’s sectional density, the deeper it will penetrate."
And again
"Expansion can be controlled by the bullet’s tip design and by the jacket construction. Rapidly expanding bullets create a wider wound channel, displacing even more tissue and increasing temporary cavitation, but they also increase drag, thus requiring more energy and momentum to drive through tissue, and in general don’t penetrate as deeply as bullets designed to expand more slowly"

...and does Hornady give a physical basis for the model?

I used the HITS methodology for a long time both for personal investigations and for my writing.

It was the writing, particularly the search for a way to modify the HITS methodology to include premium bullets, that lead me to the alternative approach.

In my view, HITS still gives results that are hard to argue with and any disagreements with the recommended "Ideal Bullet Weight" tend to be at the margins.

[Bullitt 454]

How do you figure the SD of a bullet that comes apart?

[Luke45]

will a 180 gr 7mm bullet
Act upon impact the exact same as a 180 gr 338 cal bullet of the same weight and velocity and construction? ( wound canal, penetration, ect)
I don't think so

[JASmith]

How do you figure the SD of a bullet that comes apart?

It can be done as soon as you know the dimensions and materials of the fragments.

There is an alternative path based on gel and wet-newsprint tests. You will see in the references to the Ideal Bullet Weight paper that an extensive set of tests support the conclusion that penetration in game is largely independent of caliber and impact velocity when the bullet impacts within its design envelope (usually 2,000 to 3,000 fps).

[Luke45]

It can be done as soon as you know the dimensions and materials of the fragments.

There is an alternative path based on gel and wet-newsprint tests. You will see in the references to the Ideal Bullet Weight paper that an extensive set of tests support the conclusion that penetration in game is largely independent of caliber and impact velocity when the bullet impacts within its design envelope (usually 2,000 to 3,000 fps).

So now velocity and sectional density dont matter..... so a 180gr 338 cal at 2000fps acts the same as 180gr 7mm bullet at 3000..... yea....

[Luke45]

This "ideal bullet wieght" paper also says the minimum non bonded bullet weight for coyote Huntin should be 70 gr, wich i find amusing. You can go soak some
Newspapers and shoot them and write an article saying pretty
Much whatever You want. Lots of "papers" contradict this

Who wrote that paper?

[Londerko]

So now velocity and sectional density dont matter..... so a 180gr 338 cal at 2000fps acts the same as 180gr 7mm bullet at 3000..... yea....

I am curious if anyone could prove him wrong, I haven't done any scientific tests, but I would definately think that the 7mm bullet @ 3000 fps or even the same speed as the 338 bullet for that matter, would penetrate deeper than the 338 bullet of the same weight

[bflee]

All of this is pointless. I know my rifle and my rounds as do you. Shoot what you want and be efficient and ethical. Thank you! Have a nice day!

[barrel-nut]

How do you figure the SD of a bullet that comes apart?

We have a winner!! Quote of the Day!!!! ;-)

[barrel-nut]

All of this is pointless. I know my rifle and my rounds as do you. Shoot what you want and be efficient and ethical. Thank you! Have a nice day!

Also this.