Reply With QuoteI think the 2 most important are powder charge weight and bullet seating depth. Just my 2¢.
I started loading in 1986 but have never competed with anyone other than myself. I keep careful log books of everything I ever shoot and have tried OCW, Ladders as well as a design of experiment and of course good ole trial and error for finding good loads. This weekend I had some time so I went through my log books for a few calibers and sorted the group sizes for each bullet in a given caliber. Then I sorted on powder. In my experience bullets dictated small groups much more so than powered did. Meaning that some bullets seemed to shoot more accurately than others no matter what powder was behind them. Maybe this is something you all have tried or knew but I have not seen it discussed before.
Since powder data is also affected by charge weight it is harder to sort on it but I did not see a clear winner in a powder like I did in bullets. One other thing I noted is that both of my savages FLPCK10 (one is 308 and one in 223) both averaged below 1 moa. The 223 is closer to .56 while the 308 is more like .78 moa over all the groups I have shot with them.
I am just throwing this out there to see if anyone else has noticed this?
I think the 2 most important are powder charge weight and bullet seating depth. Just my 2¢.
"An armed society is a polite society"
"...shall not be infringed" What's the confusion?
If this isnt a loaded question then I dont know what else is......dam good question though.
(for me).....Ive found it to be both the propellant and the projectile along with a hole slew of other "factors" (Im not talking about a good luck rabbit foot hanging from your rifle either)
Ive heard some fellow shooters give me the......."Remember the 3 "Bs" speech........ Barrel/Bedding/Bullet.
IMO......there so much more to it than that.
Life is tuff.....its even tuffer when your stupid
{John Wayne}
Interesting question.
But really, both are equally important. Some (long) bullets will never shoot well in slow twist barrels... Wrong powder, no matter how much, won't push a good bullet worth a dang. One barrel likes one bullet/powder combo another doesn't.
Assuming I have a range of various powders on hand, I'd rather have my first choice in bullets and use what I have (maybe my second or third choice) for powder.
I have to agree with foxx. For me, it is normally easier to find a powder that will work with a quality bullet rather than the other way around.
204, 22 K-Hornet, 222, 223, 22-250, 22-250AI, 6BR, 243, 243AI, 6-06, 6-WSM, 250-3000AI, 270, 7-08, 7RM, 30BR, 308, 30-06, 375 H&H, 444 Marlin, 450BM, 458WM
Definitely. It's apparent from ladder tests when comparing the degree of sensitivity of POI vs charge weight, and brings a smile when you find the powder that shoots flat vs the others.
+1, or two, or whatever....Originally Posted by bootsmcguire
We have all heard the saying about different rifles having different "likes", and it is very much true when it comes to bullets. You must find a bullet that is "compatible" with your rifle. You'll know it when you find it, as it will shoot well with a variety of different powders. Some powders will make it perform a little better than others. I don't think I've ever had a bullet that shot fantastic with only one powder in a given rifle, but terrible with all other powders. For that reason, I'd have to say that finding the right bullet is the largest piece of the puzzle for me. I've found Hornady A-max'es and Nosler Ballistic Tips/Accubonds to be the easiest bullets to make to shoot well in all of my rifles. They all seem to like them.
I suppose for me I've always had to find the right combination between bullet, powder, and powder charge. Often I can get a load to shoot accurately but it may not have the velocity I'm looking for. Now with this huge shortage of powder and bullets, that's made my job even harder.
They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
It's a funny question, really.
Kinda like "In a drag race, what's more important, the car or driver?"
I am a "bad" driver, so I probably can't handle a real dragster. If I try, and stear it off the road, your grandma can beat me even if she's driving a lawnmower!
If we're both driving a VW Beatle, a pro should beat me every time. If he's trying to beat me with the VW and I have a Corvette, I should be able to beat him every time.
Last edited by foxx; 04-14-2014 at 09:09 AM.
shortage of propellants sure has caused shooters/reloaders to look and find other brands and in some case,s hit pay dirt.
Life is tuff.....its even tuffer when your stupid
{John Wayne}
Well, I can say that my finding is the "BULLETS ARE THE MOST IMPORTANT COMPONET IN ACCURACY!!!!!" Without good bullets the gun will never shoot. I will quote from a conversation I had with Greg Wally (Kelbly's Head gunsmith.) "The man with the best bullets and barrel is the person that will always win the match." With that said the second most important component in accuracy is the Barrel. There are great barrels, Good barrels, OK barrels, and bad barrels. Great barrels or hummer barrels are hard to get, some say your chances of winning the lottery twice is better than getting a hummer barrel. Your can have one of these Great barrels, but without good bullets it will not shoot. Going back to bullets, Bullets are so important to Mike Ratigan (Hall of fame Benchrest shooter and author of extreme rifle accuracy) This is the reason why he shoots a 22 caliber, and the reason why is he claims that the smaller surface leave smaller chances of there being a hidden defect within the bullet jacket. After that, all that matters is that the action produces a constant and reliable ignition source, and that the scope is in good shape. As far as powder goes, it is one of the most consistent things available. Yes it can very from lot to lot, but this is all part of the tuning process. You can have the same powder, and it will very from morning to night and day to day. This is where getting the know the powder you use and recording, and knowing what it does in different conditions will be a great benefit. Even from lot to lot, what works with one lot on tuning will work on another lot , and other lots to come and go. With that said I don't worry about powder, I know the temperament of the powders and adjust them from there, I just open up the bolt and go. Now with that all said the powder has to be appropriate for the cartridge, you would not shoot Reloader 25 in a 223 with 52 gr bullets, sounds stupid but people try and force stuff that don't work just because. As long as the powder is appropriate, a person that knows how to tune a rifle will make it work, and continue to make it work. Last off powder is the most tolerant component many short range shooters will never weight changes, but just drop from the measures. Long range shooters can but most weight them, as the longer kernels don't meter as well through the measurer. I can say I have intentionally shot several different charge weights at 200 yards, and shot bullets into the same hole. If they don't say close is all the matters I don't know what does.
I only have one rifle that hasn't shot sub-moa, my WASR-10/63 AKM shoots just over MOA... and I am talking with every bullet I've tried. Even my 96 year old rifle with a extremely pitted bore shoots sub-moa with every bullet I've tried... and I've tried a lot of them.
My average group with the rifle is just under MOA.
That is with the cheapest jacketed bullet I know of.
I would venture to say that any name brand jacketed bullet has the capability to shoot sub-moa. Finding the proper range in powder burn rate, to work well with the bullet weight, is the key.
Now cast bullets are a different story.
Low end bullets will never shoot like this. 5 Shots @100 yard in competition 7 minute time limit.
"Never" is pretty concrete.Low end bullets will never shoot like this. 5 Shots @100 yard in competition 7 minute time limit.
Same rifle as before.
Some call these "low end bullets."
Unless I am having problems, I don't usually shoot rifles at 100 yards, mostly pistols.
Like everyone stated bullet comprise of 60% of its accuracy... A lot of people doesn't consider primer as an accuracy contributor, but I consider 20% of my ammo accuracy rely on a good consistent primer...
I have found it pretty well impossible to get the 1955 Yugoslavian 8mm bullets to group. Even with new brass, new primer and new powder. The PPU ammo also has bullets that are not very precise. I would never regard something made by Hornady as being "junk" but PPU is well down the scale from Hornady.
So in my book, I am going to start with the best bullet that I can, without going to the extent of cnc turned copper solids for over $1 each... Lapua, Hornady, Berger (if you can find them) Sierra, all good bullets in my opinion. My 308 with its 175 SMK is more accurate than I am every day of the week.
Like you, I have kicked around reloading since 1986 in earnest, 5 years earlier occassionally. And like you, I found myself always trying to determine the best powder/bullet combo, and it was all a school of hard knocks initially. Got better with the internet and info on 'what others were using successfully, etc.' Same with Handloader mag, etc.
Then - recently - I bought Waters' Pet Loads comprehensive notes/book. WOW!!! IMHO - NO reloader should be WITHOUT this reference!
Antedotally - I just got a Savage Mdl 11 VT in 308, w/ hvy bbl. I looked through Sniper Central to see what shooters were using for accuracy loads in 308. There were two major commonality powder/bullet combos, and two lesser combos. I then went back and cross-referenced these against Waters' Pet Loads. Real surprise - Waters had all the loads already listed as most or second most accurate!
Purchase of Waters' Pet Loads has been one of THE best reloading expenditures I have made!
For me reloading different calibers has been an exercise in frustration to find an accurate bullet/powder/barrel combination.
When I find it I'm as happy as a three year old with unlimited access to the cookie jar. Until then I'm a cantankerous sort. I tend to do my work up using one powder until I'm convinced it's not the powder to use for that bullet/powder combination. Then I'll switch bullets and start over. If that don't work then I'll try a different powder. It's hard for me to say which is the most important factor, powder or bullet, but I have seen both have an effect on accuracy. I've struggled to find the right combination at times, strive for 0.5 MOA with hunting rifles, and I've managed to get it with two of four rifles. The other two shoot in the 0.7's with their preferred bullet/powder combination.
I think I'll be purchasing Ken Water's book in the near future.
We can argue the merits of bullet vs powder for accuracy till the cows come home but the simple fact is in the world of centerfire cartridges you can't have one without the other. What i think may or may not be what you think but take just one component away and you have nothing.
"And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” John 8:32 (New King James Version)
I have been following this post and to be honest after close to 40 years of loading I have decided that one powder type will generally work for many calibers(mine anyway) with an assortment of bullets.
What I do is find a load for the powder and generally start at posted mid point and .010 off the lands. Work my loads up to close to max in .3gr. increments, and change seating depth .005 increments once I get close. I usually ende up .020-.025 off the lands for best perfomance.
I use sierra bullets and IMR 4895 exclusively, no more 5-6 powders on the shelf and maybe it is just by luck but so far only one rifle is 3/4of an inch @ 100 yrds. and I am still working on that one, about to change the bullet weight. All others are under 1/2 and a few half of that.
They may not be the fastest out of the barrel but they are accurate.
So my uneducated guess is it is more a combo of bullet and barrel not powder. almost forgot all primers are CCI, large or small,and all shooting is 300 yards or less.
One for instance is a 223 60gr. varmater sierra being pushed by 24 gr. imr4895 at an average 2907fps 8shots under a dime on a regular bases out of a factory 1:9 26 inch barrel.
turn-out gear is on flame away.
FROGGY
See profile for fire arms
Do it today there maybe no tomorrow
I agree RJT. I've found RL-15 to work well in several of my rifles. On the other hand, each rifle definitely has its favorite bullet. Without quality bullets, that are suited to each particular rifle, you will be frustrated.
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