Reply With QuoteHow are you planning to headspace it? The reason the rimmed rounds don't work, even as single shots, is the extractor isn't designed to work with the rimmed case. Design and build a new extractor, or headspace off the mouth of the case.
Ohio passed a law that allows a few straight walled cases for deer. The 357 max is one I will probably use. I was wondering if anyone has ever converted a bolt action to 357 max. I know the rimmed rounds don't usually work. But I would love a repeater bolt action in 357 max. The ruger 77/357 rifles mag isn't long enough to feed the maximum cases. I was wondering if anyone had ever done a savage.
Rounds like the 450 marlin and bushmaster arernt approved which would have made for an easy repeater.
Your help and advice is appreciated.
How are you planning to headspace it? The reason the rimmed rounds don't work, even as single shots, is the extractor isn't designed to work with the rimmed case. Design and build a new extractor, or headspace off the mouth of the case.
Are you sure you can use it in a rifle? Michigan has a similar law, for the southern portion of the state we call the "shotgun zone", but the straight wall cart has to be fired from a handgun.
Yes they just passed the law here in ohio to use certain calibers in rifles.
I think as a repeater you are going to have many issues. First that comes to mind is the rim dragging inside the magazine and trying to hang up. Second will be the shorter OAL of even the smallest cartridges that will feed up the Savage feed ramp from a magazine. And 3rd is the shorter brass will probably not stay on the extractor long enough to clear the action and allow for a 2nd shot.
The 221 Fireball is an example of a cartridge that people try to get to feed in a Savage 10/110 series and normally fail to get it to do so reliably. Often times to get the 221 to run at all it has to be a single shot with the ejector removed. The 357 Max is shorter than the 221 so all of those problems will be even harder.
All that said, if you can spare the funds to try it, by all means do and share with us how it worked for you. Worst case scenario you end up running it as a Single shot if it doesn't work out.
204, 22 K-Hornet, 222, 223, 22-250, 22-250AI, 6BR, 243, 243AI, 6-06, 6-WSM, 250-3000AI, 270, 7-08, 7RM, 30BR, 308, 30-06, 375 H&H, 444 Marlin, 450BM, 458WM
Dang, if I could use my 45-70 down here (in southern Michigan), that's all I'd ever use!Originally Posted by spook1
Seems I've heard someone mention using 223 brass necked up to 357 to make a 357 Max Rimless.
If you get it figured out, inquiring minds want to know, and see pictures! :D
If you give up on making a repeater and want to make a 357 Max the easy way, go see these guys:
http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/hr-centerfire-rifles/
They can tell you all of the in's and out's of building a 357 Max rifle based on an H&R Handi-Rifle.
BW
+1 to this. The guys at Graybeard are handi rifle gurus and the .357 max is one of their favorites.
I'm a little curious why this is so much worse than the 20 or 12 ga slug guns that Savage sells ? They too have rimmed cartridges yet also have magazines. Yes the bolt head is modified to accept a blade style ejector which results in the cartridge staying with the bolt. I would suggest closely examining the bolt in Savages slug gun prior to considering this. Needless to say, it will be a custom bolt head, ejector and magazine. The slug gun mags hold only 2 shells so 3 shots total if you load the 3rd in the chamber. Good enough for hunting.
Slug gun bolt pictured here
I think the difference with the slug guns is the larger diameter helps glide through things better, and also the bolt heads for the shot shells operate more like a CRF type head rather than a Push-feed head of the standard Savages. JMHO's of course.
I do believe that the shorter case length will be the biggest hurdle to the OP for the reasons I cited above, and as I may not have clearly started above, the 221 case often falls off the extractor during extract/eject because of its short length allowing it to cant over from ejector pressure while still inside the action but before clearing the ejection port thus leaving an empty inside the action. This is why many 221 shooters run as a single shot and remove the ejector, so they can just pluck the case from the bolt head. Since the 357 Max is even a bit shorter yet I think this will be a bigger problem unless run as a single and without ejector. Again, JMHO's.
204, 22 K-Hornet, 222, 223, 22-250, 22-250AI, 6BR, 243, 243AI, 6-06, 6-WSM, 250-3000AI, 270, 7-08, 7RM, 30BR, 308, 30-06, 375 H&H, 444 Marlin, 450BM, 458WM
The shotgun does not have a spring loaded ejector, but a blade one that only strikes the shell when the bolt is all the way back. I traded away my 220, but it may also have 2 extractors that hold the shell pretty tight. I know that when I got it, the factory had forgotten to fit the blade ejector and I had to peel the shell off the face of the bolt. No way it was falling off by itself. Not sure I would describe it as controlled round feed though. I thought feeding was pretty crappy. Of course the OP would also need a long bolt shroud, perhaps like used on a 223. That would restrict the bolt throw to an appropriate distance.
No I agree the Shotshell bolt heads are not true CRF, but as I said "more like" CRF due to the standing blade ejector and the ability to slide up onto the bolt head like a CRF rather than having to snap into the bolt head like a standard Savage Center Fire Push Feed head.
You could use a "Bolt shroud" (aka- Front Baffle) with the dog leg to shorten the stroke if needed, but it won't make any difference as to how the cartridge rides through the mag body and up the action's feed ramp nor assist with ejection problems. It will however shorten the bolt throw and speed up cycle time, but only if you are using a 223 mag which have the spacer in the rear (assuming short action here). If you use one with the 22-250, 308, or WSM style mags then your bolt won't have enough rearward travel to grab the next round.
204, 22 K-Hornet, 222, 223, 22-250, 22-250AI, 6BR, 243, 243AI, 6-06, 6-WSM, 250-3000AI, 270, 7-08, 7RM, 30BR, 308, 30-06, 375 H&H, 444 Marlin, 450BM, 458WM
Surely a 223 magazine would be the closest fit for the task ? Perhaps modified to accept a thicker rear spacer ? One would likely want to load polymer tipped bullets, so that they would feed better, since this is obviously not a revolver nor a single shot. The centerfeed magazine does position the round fairly high, so I don't think that will be an issue, but the lead in on the chamber may have to be improved somewhat. Given the rather large feed ramp on the DE 44mag I briefly owned, I would say that improving the feed ramp on the chamber should not be an issue. One would have to make an index mark on the barrel after setting head space, then remove the barrel to cut a feed ramp if needed.
We have similar legislation to what recently passed in OH and IN in the Senate where it has been stalled for 2 years due to the DNR not wanting to relax the "shotgun rules". If the bill does pass this year, I will be looking at the exact same setup the OP is after since the .357 bullets would have a better BC weight for weight compared to a 44 Mag.
I wish they would consider something like that down here in Iowa. We have a rifle season in the southern part of the state, but its the last one of the year and doe only. By that late the deer are so "gun-shy" (pun intended) you need a centerfire rifle just to get to them.
Something I have wondered is in a 357 Mag or Max is if loading for a rifle, could you use the lighter bullets intended for the 358 Win or the 35 Whelen and load them in the Mag or Max?
204, 22 K-Hornet, 222, 223, 22-250, 22-250AI, 6BR, 243, 243AI, 6-06, 6-WSM, 250-3000AI, 270, 7-08, 7RM, 30BR, 308, 30-06, 375 H&H, 444 Marlin, 450BM, 458WM
I am building a 358 Gremlin AR15, IE 358/6.5 grendel and it has a shoulder and should work better for headspacing than a 357 maximum.
Its an Indiana cartridge but I am using it for a low recoil pig round with a heavy bullet.
McGowen has BFG cartridges reamer. Reamer rental is $40 if you buy the dies from BFG. Dies are pricey at $150. Still waiting on my barrel.
He also has a 358 WSSM of some sort if you want more horsepower.
http://www.bfgcartridges.com/
Never mind I just saw the straight walled cartridge statement.
Last edited by tammons; 04-16-2014 at 01:02 PM.
If the 444 marlin brass was turned down to .473 at the head, would there be enough of a groove to provide extraction? This may be a viable alternative if the 444 is on the legal list. You should have no feeding problems, and your head stamp would still read 444. I couldn't find a print that showed the groove diameter, but it might be worth building a case for testing purposes.
Originally Posted by keeki
Guess it doesn't really matter. If ya cant afford $15, you won't be buying much anyways
Here's what's currently listed in the state of Ohio hunting regulations, see link.
http://www2.ohiodnr.gov/news/post/oh...ng-regulations
“Legal deer hunting rifles are chambered for the following calibers: .357 Magnum, .357 Maximum, .38 Special, .375 Super Magnum, .375 Winchester, .38-55, .41 Long Colt, .41 Magnum, .44 Special, .44 Magnum, .444 Marlin, .45 ACP, .45 Colt, .45 Long Colt, .45 Winchester Magnum, .45 Smith& Wesson, .454 Casull, .460 Smith & Wesson, .45-70, .45-90, .45-110, .475 Linebaugh, .50-70, .50-90, .50-100, .50-110 and .500 Smith & Wesson.”
Then it would be worth investigating the 444 Marlin. I did find the extractor groove diameter, it's .450" so it just may work out.
Originally Posted by keeki
Guess it doesn't really matter. If ya cant afford $15, you won't be buying much anyways
Google 7.62x54R Savage
you'll find a good article about how to use a rimmed cartridge in a savage.
for some reason I cant post the link.
What they did was chamfer the barrel to allow the rim to hang over the chamber slightly so the extracter could grab it
Here is the LINK to the article I think you are referencing.
I had once contemplated doing just what he has done, but then again with straight wall you can also headspace on the rim of the brass just as you would for a 45 ACP or similar.
204, 22 K-Hornet, 222, 223, 22-250, 22-250AI, 6BR, 243, 243AI, 6-06, 6-WSM, 250-3000AI, 270, 7-08, 7RM, 30BR, 308, 30-06, 375 H&H, 444 Marlin, 450BM, 458WM
Thanks! Thats the article I was referring to......my dumb smart phone just wouldnt paste it for some reason.
Dan,
You can actually use 06 based brass instead of having to turn off the rim of 444 brass. Just use the 444 dies to do the reloading with. Headspace off the case mouth.
Jim,
I agree 100%, but I'm not sure it'd pass the scrutiny of 90% of the game officers out there. At least with the 444 headstamp, most would give it the once over and be willing to give the benefit of the doubt. You'd only have to have the cases prepped once.
Originally Posted by keeki
Guess it doesn't really matter. If ya cant afford $15, you won't be buying much anyways
The Savage 7.62x54R looks interesting but I dont think the cone is necessary, the Russian is a bottle necked case; could therefore alternatively head space off the shoulder. The rimmed round in the 30 cal barrel should probably be considered (and marked) the 'Finnish' not 'Russian' round, ie. x53R which uses a 30/308 barrel.... at least someone wont try jamming 312 diameter factory rounds in there....
As far as choice of rounds in Ohio; I'd by pass the 357 and head straight to the 500S&W!
I would love a 460 s&w or 500, but I didn't know if they could be done in a bolt action. Anyone ever did one of these on a bolt action. The wssm bolt face should be close shouldn't it.
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