Opinions on neck tension, tell me what you think on what I'm doing?

[Gene75]

Hi guy's, here's what I'm doing, first off I'm using a model 10FLCP-K in 308win, I'm using Lapua brass that I've turned the necks just enough to trim off the fat! my neck walls are right at .15thou, I'm using a Lee neck collet neck sizing die that has a mandrel size of .305.5, after neck sizing the OD of the necks are .337dia my SMK's measure .308.5 on the bearing surface, after I seat my bullet to 2.830 my neck OD is at .338.5 or .339, what say you? I'm I good on this measurement for my neck tension?

[Slowpoke Slim]

Are you shooting it as a single shot, or a repeater? If you're loading from the magazine, you may not have enough neck tension for the bullet not to move in the case during recoil while it sits in the magazine. Also the bullet may move in the case during it's trip from magazine to chamber. Only way to know for sure is to try it.

I run about that same neck tension in my 6.5x284, but it is a single shot.

[yobuck]

Turning necks for the sake of turning necks can cause problems with tension.
i mean its a factory chamber and especially with lapua brass id be aceing the neck turning.

[Jetpig]

agree with Yobuck. Neck turning not required

[Gene75]

yep I'm shooting it a single shot only! and that was gonna be my next question as to if it was enough tension for magazine use? but you have brought up another question to wheather it my be getting pushed back in the case during the chambering the round? I know if I try to use my hammer type bullet puller it's all I can do to get the bullet out of the case! so I wonder about this?

[Gene75]

also I'm not using a crimp! should I?

[Geo_Erudite]

This is the technique that I use:

Article

[Gene75]

I know some don't agree with neck turning but I'm only removing about 50% or less of the material from the factory, just enough to uniform them! I get very good accuracy from this set up, it'll shoot a 1.5'' group at 200m IMO I think this is good for an out of the box rifle with hand loads, what do you think?

[Gene75]

That is basically what I do that's in the article, thanks for posting the info

[Slowpoke Slim]

Well if you're just turning them enough to true them up, I say no harm. But if you're turning off extra neck surface, I'd say be very careful here. What the guys are getting at is you have a factory cut chamber. Chances are it's not a very tight neck chamber. If you have too much space between the brass neck and the chamber neck wall, your brass will be unsupported and accuracy can suffer. Also, you will be over working your necks because they expand to the dimension of the neck wall, and if you're constantly working them too far, you'll get split or cracked necks in a hurry.

What is the outside neck measurement of your fired round?

And keep working on your load. You should be able to find a load that shoots better than 1.5" @ 200. May also have to look at your shooting bench set up and shooting technique.

[Gene75]

The OD on these 1's fired cases are .344, I don't know if you think this is to much expansion? these were all new cases that I fully prepped before I loaded and fired them, do you think I should add a slight crimp?

[Slowpoke Slim]

Absolutely "NO" to the crimp! You will throw your neck tension out the window if you do.

And crimping rifle cases introduces a whole new set of variables you have to deal with.

Personally I never crimp bottle neck rifle cases. Absolutely NO need for it. A false "cure" used to "fix" an underlying problem (usually sizing die issue) that should be dealt with instead.

[Slowpoke Slim]

And your neck expansion is .005-.006, that's right up there. I sure wouldn't take off any more from your necks than you already have.

[emtrescue6]

also I'm not using a crimp! should I?

No crimp....it will completely negate any intended "benefit" of playing with neck tension...

[Gene75]

ok IYO would you make the neck tension 3thou for use in the magazine? or tighter I have only once fired these cases and have not tweaked them for any kind of accuracy as of yet just fire forming only I'm wanting advice and opinions on this set up, I'm planning on using this rifle for long range target shooting out to 1k or as far as she'll shoot with the factory set up I have a custom rifle being built on a Model 11 action, blue printed with a Brux M24/M40 barrel and a Stockade stock w/DBM, so I'm trying to get a better feel on my loading with the Model 10 before I get my other rifle back from the builder I kinda have an idea of what I'm doing and I've been shooting my whole life and reloading for 20yrs but not to this level, I have all new precision tooling to work with just need a little help with the fine adjustments like what were discussing in this thread so thanks for any and all input it greatly appreciated

[COplains]

I would listen to the others before I'd listen to me but my reloading process does differ:

for the 223, no matter if FL or neck size only I set my seating die to add 0.0015" of taper crimp
for the 7mag, I use a dead length seating die, however, I then use a factory crimp collet die set to minimum. I have had bullets push back without doing that step.
the 308 is still in pieces so I'll have to see what works for it

I've never turned necks, I'd like all the metal available for case longevity and so long as they seat concentric (I have a gauge) I'm happy. I've never had an issue with either method, both are repeatable, accuracy is as good as I can shoot after finding the "sweet" load(s). I understand the principle behind turning necks, it's just never been a step I felt I needed....I don't shoot competion, well, not much so no first hand experience with it. Just sayin.

kb

[Gene75]

well lets just say I've done a tone of research all over the net after I made this post and their are allot of opinions on this subject but to my understanding no matter what you do you will not see any more neck tension 2thou no matter what you do from what I've readI have also read that 2thou tension seems to be the norm even for hunting type rifle recoil? all I can say is it takes allot of pounding with my bullet puller to remove a seated bullet! so IMO I don't see it moving under recoil or from loading into the chamber! I have loaded thousands of rounds of bullets for rifle and have not experienced any issues even in my M1A using the same loading procedure as my bolt rifles, I just thought their was something I was over looking in doing this type of reloading but I guess not? some folks recommend 3k under some 2k under? all I know is what I have been doing works and I have been at the 2k tension range with turning my necks, I also tried a mandrel change from .305.5 to .306 I still get the same basic results of 2k, I pulled the bullet after I seated it on the .306 mandrel and I have a 1k snap back on the neck, so it now go's from .336.5 to 338.5 seated and pulled at .337.5 and from what I've read this normal let me know if I'm wrong

[yobuck]

I would load 1 round "without" turning the neck at all. After firing it into a dirt bank or whatever, take a bullet and insert it into the neck of that case.
If the bullet slides in with little to no pressure you certainly shouldnt be taking anymore off the necks. You could check your existing fired cases also.
A tight neck custom chamber will allow for seating bullets without resizing. It would require neck turning to true them up.
Usually only serious competitors opt for that type neck.
Most hunters opt for a "no turn neck" chamber even on custom chambers.
You could get a lee or redding collet die to tighten up on the tension of the cases youve turned if necessary in order to save them.
I would definatly not be crimping the bullets. Crimping is a common practice in the older tubular magazine type rifles like 94 winchesters. Bullets are always round nosed and have a cannulure for that purpose.

[Gene75]

I intend to do just that you must be reading my mind here's what gets me Lapua and Federal cases are pretty thick walled cases and have 15k or bigger neck thickness, just for S&G's I bought a box of Nosler brass awhile back but have not touched them other then to run them thru my Wilson case gauge to check head spacing and trim length and neck wall thickness, and to my surprise these necks are 13k thick right from the factory and Nosler claims their ready to load as is my thinking is if Nosler making their 308win brass like this right from the factory how can I be hurting my Lapua brass turning them down to 15k just to true them up anyway I am gonna do some experimenting with brass to see what if any differences show up I have 4 different manufactures of brass all new cases to work with to see what I can see thanks for you input bro

[Jetpig]

Just my ideas and I am not a pro by any means, Neck turning is more for a custom order tight neck barrel which with little clearance will hold the round nearly centered in the chamber and release the bullet with even tension. If you have a barrel with a forgiving neck it will likely have little effect unless your ammo is way out on neck thickness. Nothing wrong with what you are doing in my opinion unless the necks get too thin. I just don't feel there is enough benefit to do it. No matter it will likely decrease your brass life.

[yobuck]

What we "think" dosent matter much especially when it argues against facts.
A fired case from any chamber should be all the evidence required as to the need
for neck turning in that chamber. If you cant push a bullet into a fired case then yes it needs
some taken off. Snug would be nice. Otherwise leave it alone and be happy.
Yes brass varies so its best to stick with one type or at least seperate it and deal with it accordingly.

[Gene75]

yobuck, I tried pushing a bullet back into the case mouth of a fired case, I shoot the 175 SMK's and with the Lapua brass it has a very slight interference at the back end of the bearing surface where the boat tail is, other then that the rest of the bearing surface doesn't seem to contact the ID of the case mouth, what is you opinion of the fit?

[yobuck]

Shape and weight dont matter, .308 is .308.
Dont feel bad because your not the first to screw up good brass by turning necks in chambers not requiring it.
How do you think i became an expert? lol.
If youve got lots of lapua brass involved it might pay to buy a collet die to be able to use it.
Otherwise chalk it up to education which always cost somebody. Id personaly trash the brass and move on.
Were fortunate today in having factory rifles that shoot as well as they do. Handloaders especially can wring performance
from factory rifles not possible just a couple decades ago. But remember it is what it is and be happy with it.
Theres an old cliche about trying to make chicken soup.
Aint no way your gonna beat the serious guys using custom guns with factory rifles. For that matter, custom aint always custom.

[Gene75]

ok please explain? what do you think I have done wrong? what should be going on in what I've done or should not be going on?

[Gene75]

this is exactly what I'm doing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JASKP...A85A45569047C3