Reply With QuoteGo to the Hodgdon site and you will find all the load info for those bullets or similar enough to use with Varget. You should also get a reloading manual.
Ok guys I'm a newbe, so please be kind. I need some help with some reload recipes. I've never loaded a case in my life. Here's what I have to work with.
Savage 10p with 1 in 10 5r rifling 20 inch barrel
1 lb varget
1lb rl15
Lake city once fired brass cleaned and prepped.
100 hornady 168 gr match bthp
100 hornady 155 gr a max
Cci 250 large rifle primers
I've already full length sized a hundred or so cases and I've got a pile of cases that are around 2.010 give or take a couple of thousandths. And a pile that are upwards of 2.025 that I'll have to trim.
I'm just wanting to get on paper and get a feel for reloading. Since savage shooters members know their stuff. What are a couple of loads I should start out with for this rifle? And to anyone loading for this particular rifle what works for you as far as over all length?
Just got a lee classic turrent press, rcbs hand primer Lyman powder trickler and a Frankfort arsenal digital scale. Rcbs die set and lee neck sizer and dead length bullet seating die. Had a lee flsd but I learned lesson #1. Lube. So I got the rcbs set. Any help is appreciated.
Go to the Hodgdon site and you will find all the load info for those bullets or similar enough to use with Varget. You should also get a reloading manual.
Get the ABC's of Reloading manual or Lyman 49th & read them then read them again then read them again. Reloading is like working with a mini bomb. You can lose fingers. Never trust any load data from someone on the internet. What works in their guns does not necessarily work in yours. Always verify load data. Sorry if this sounds harsh but I don't want you to become a casualty. Take your time & ease into it slowly. After you finishing reading shoot me a PM & I'll give you some starting points for the bullets you have. Stay safe.
BW
First take a resized case and split the neck with a cut off wheel on a dremel or a hacksaw blade. What you want are cuts on opposite sides of just the case neck. Then take one of your 168’s and just start it into the “empty” case with the split neck. Chamber the round..you may have to push a little to get the bullet to slide back into the case…lock down the bolt then remove the case and bullet. Hopefully the bullet stays in the case when you eject it. If not use your cleaning rod to tap it back out. Use your calipers to measure the overall length of the round. Do this several times till you get a consistent reading. We’re looking for the Ogive Length…where the bullet touches the rifling. Compare this length to your magazine length. Hopefully you can seat it out to the lands and still fit in the magazine. If not..then you’ll have to decide if you want mag length or to single load them. If you choose to single load them…then take .010” off the length you determined as touching the lands. That’s your starting point.
Hodgdon shows max for Varget as 45.0 compressed load with the 168gr. bullet.
Load 5 rounds for each subgroup.
42.5
43.0
43.5
44.0
44.5
45.0
Pick what you think is the best group of the bunch. For example…44.0 shoots the best..Go back and reload your next group..but this time..shrink the subgroups to this..based on 44.0 being the best.
43.5
43.7
43.9
44.1
44.3
And retest these. Hopefully you will see a series in the middle where several of the charge weights look real good….For example 43.9 to 44.1 all looked great. Pick the middle charge weight as your new load. Then if you aren’t dependent on the mag length you can start making adjustments to your bullet seating depth.
I think the CBTO -.01 is a bit much for a beginner and requires precision measurements--I would start at -.03, find the nodes and then "fine tune" the jumps--if necessary; just my opinion--none of my one-hole groupers are that close in 308.
[B][COLOR="#FF8C00"]Shooting--it's like high-speed golf[/COLOR][/B]
Josh with a standard length of 2.800 inches the 168SMK in a 20" barrel, you should have a wide accuracy node around 43.0gr RL15, and 42.5 Varget. These should have low-moderate pressure, but work up as suggested in 0.5 increments.
I would add Lee's second edition to this list. While it shamelessly plugs thier products it contains loading information from multiple powder manufacturers.Originally Posted by BW64
Ok guys here is what I've done so far. thanks for all your suggestions and taking the time to reply. i loaded 6 different rounds using the 155 grain match bullets. ill start working with the 168 this weekend.
Varget 38.2 40.4 and 42.6.
these are the middle loads posted in the honady book. i didn't wanna go to the max load till i tried these out first. I'm using lc brass and magnum powders.
rl15 i loaded 40.1 41.9 and 43.6
i loaded all these to the lee suggested 2.775 OAL.
one uestion about the die size. all rounds chamber well, but seen to stick a little coming out of battery. i haven't shot them yet but i was trying them in the gun while i loaded them. I've shot FGMM in this gun and it shoots great. I tried the PPU match 168 and its tight as hell closing the bolt. i blued a round and chambered it and found that it contacts the chamber right below the neck angle where it tranitions into the straight. is this a common issue with savage chambers(maybe on the small side of the tolerance specs. i mic this area and its about .004 larger than the FGMM 168 round. i just hope i don't run into this with the reloads I'm starting. any experience or suggestions are appreciated.
thanks again
josh
You mentioned that the chamber was .004” larger then the FGMM..but didn’t say what it was compared to the PPU that was really tight. Did you mean to say magnum powders or magnum primers? If your using magnum primers in the .308 your likely going to get weird velocity fluctuations due to the spike in flame. These spikes will give you vertical stringing at longer ranges. I loaded for a custom 300wsm for years for extreme long range shooting and used “standard” large rifle primers in it which holds a lot more powder then the .308. The mag primers were necessary unless the temperature dropped to below 30 degrees.
You got really big jumps in our powder charges with the RL15…I don’t know off hand what the max is for that..but jumping from 41.9 to 43.6 is too much. All initial charges should be spread apart by .5grains..you could easily miss an accuracy node with those numbers or get into a pressure problem quickly.
The ppu was around .004 larger at the base of the neck and it won't chamber without much effort. Fgmm fits perfect, chambering and extracting. And I am using cci mag primers. I didn't know when I bought them. I won't use any more.
Several decent reloading videos are on youtube. Wouldn't hurt to look at a few.
you might want to look at reloadersnest.com . . . many post are there for the 308
Dennis
[B][SIZE=3]Dennis[/SIZE][/B]
Its always good to at least make a few at the start load. I find it more reassuring to use the starting data and work up. One of my best loads uses 41 gr of 4064 behind a 168 gr berger in .308. This is at the minimum and it drives tacks. Be careful and start low.
Feels good to be able to help someone; I'm usually on the receiving end of the vast amount of accurate knowledge on this board.
I primarily load the same bullets you do. Still working on the 168 Gn. loads, but I LOVE the 155 Gn. Amax's. Of course the usual disclaimers apply- and I agree 1000% with the above posters as far as suggested reloading manuals, ABC's of reloading etc.
My rifle is a Savage Mod. 11 Hog Hunter in .308 Win., 1:10 Twist, 20" Bbl. Scope I'm using (LOVE it!) is Nikon Buckmasters 6-18x40. I set it at 14 power for 100 yards-which is where these groups were shot.
These are three round groups- the average of three groups of 3 rounds each.
Lapua Brass, CCI Large rifle primer, 45.7 Gn. Varget behind 155 Gn. A Max , 2.800 C.O.A.L., .4555" Group Center-Center. Ambient Temp. 43 degrees F, little to no wind. Heavy overcast.
Lapua Brass, CCI Large rifle primer, 44.7 Gn. Varget behind 155 Gn. A Max, 2.800 C.O.A.L., .2535" Group Center-Center. Shot same day as above load- same conditions.
Hope this helps- best wishes on finding the loads your rifle loves best. Have fun- to me the thrill is in the search...
Brian
Learning something new, experiencing something new and sharing the journey are reason enough to get out of bed each day!
Alright. I just got back from trying out some of these loads. Again thanks for your input and advice. Best group of the day was155 grn amax 42.6 grains varget OAL was around 2.780 inches. 5 shot group. I didn't have a bench so I was shooting off my dodge durango hood and using Harris bipod.
After the varget loads I went to the rl15 and the groups started opening up a lot. Found that 20 moa mount needed loctite. Oops. Guess I'll start messing with bullet seating depth and varying the powder charge up and down a little. Got some 210 federal L&r primers to try as well.
Overall I'm happy with this first attempt at reloading. Everything went bang and nothing seemed to push the pressure to high.
First off, welcome to the forum, and welcome to reloading.
You're off to a good start, with a manual, and asking questions. That's good.
There's more than one way to skin a cat, and more than one technique to reloading. So some of this advice will seem to contradict what others have said, but as long as you're using a safe method and verifying your work, any of these methods will work.
When I'm developing a new load, or working with a new rifle (or barrel), I like to start with components that have worked for me in the past under similar specs (I have the advantage of reloading for almost 40 years). It's also important to use components that match the intended purpose for the gun. I don't test match bullets in big game rifles, and I don't test hunting bullets in match rifles. Then I look at the load range from min to max on that specific bullet/powder combo. So for your Varget and 155 gr Hornady, the Hornady manual lists 35.9 to 44.9. Normally I take this range and split it right down the center. In this case that is 40.4 grs. That would be "my starting" load for making test loads.
On a 308 sized case, I go in .5 grain increments, and I load 5 of each. So I would load 5 rounds at 40.5 (simpler to go in .5's), 5 at 41.0, 5 at 41.5, etc, etc, on up to 44.5 grs which is where I would likely stop. I actually write the bullet weight, powder and charge weight on the side of the case with a fine tipped "Sharpie" when I seat the bullet. Then I take all of this test ammo to the range and start shooting at the bottom loads (40.5), and shoot my way up to the top loads. Now having said that, if along the way, I start seeing any pressure signs, I'll stop shooting the increasing increment loads until I figure out what the cause is.
The idea here is that hopefully, one of these loads will "show me" something good. I shoot all 5 of each test load into a separate target, or area of a large target, so I can keep them and take notes on them. IF one of these loads shows me something good, like a group size I'm after (depends on what the rifle's for), then I will make special note of that load recipe, and I will go back and load 25 more of that exact same load. If I get more than one "good" group, then I'll generally work with the higher charged load, for velocity and trajectory reasons.
My "requirements" for "good" group also depend on application. For a match or prairie dog gun, I require 5 shots cutting into same hole. For a big game rifle, 5 shots must all go under an inch. Tighter is better, for sure, but that will be "good".
If that 25 round batch also shows me the same good group, then and there, I have "finished" load development for that recipe. That load recipe now goes into my permanent reloading notebook.
If, on the other hand, I don't see anything good in that initial test range batch, then I change ONE thing at a time, and start over again. Never change more than one variable at a time, or you can overlook combinations that end up being "The One". So, only change seating depth, or only change powder type, or primer, etc, etc, and start all over again when you do. For hunting rifles I start off seating bullets to 20-30 thousanths off the lands, assuming it will still feed through the magazine on a repeater. For match or even prairie dog guns, I'll start with them seated much closer, like 10 thousanths off the lands.
The reason I don't start off on the very bottom of the load range is, most powders will burn very inefficient at minimum load. You get erratic combustion, and shots likely will vertically string, or can even "shotgun pattern" all over the target. Wastes more time and components imho. Even at "mid-scale" loads, you often don't start to see good groups until you move higher up in the pressure/combustion scale. This is especially true as cartridge case size gets larger, and powder burn rates get slower. But I stick to .5 grain increments so I don't "fly past" a good load without knowing it.
And on a side note, for test development, you need a true shooting bench type setup. You are basing recipe decisions off of the groups you shoot, so you need to be very precise and accurate in your shooting technique. That way you don't miss a great recipe due to a bad hold/shooting position. Shooting off of a car hood with a bipod will introduce far too much "wiggle" in your gun and give you false group sizes. You need to eliminate the shooter as much as possible when testing loads. We're testing loads, not testing shooters. :)
And I've seen guys scorch their paint jobs with powder burns, crease their hoods with bullets, and even crack their windshields from muzzle blast.
Just my 2 cents worth anyway.
12F, McGowen 6.5x284 1-8" twist, Nightforce 12-42x BR<br />BVSS, McGowen barrel, 22-250 1-9" twist, Nikon 6-18x<br />16 FHLSS Weather Warrior, Sinarms 257 Roberts, Pentax 3-9<br />Stevens 200, 223 bone-factory-stock, Nikon 3-9x<br />Scratch-built BVSS, LW 243 1-8" twist, Viper 6.5-20x50 mil-dot
+1 with the Lee Manual. Yes it is full of shameless plugs for their equipment. Most of the info applies to most makes and styles of dies and measures, and the load data is a nice wide comparison from all the major brands.
OP, great choice on the 155 A-Max and Varget. That is a winning combo in my 308. Keep working up keeping a close eye for pressure signs. FWIW mine shoots the 155 with 45.0gr of Varget and zero signs of pressure. Remember to keep working up carefully as each barrel is different.
204, 22 K-Hornet, 222, 223, 22-250, 22-250AI, 6BR, 243, 243AI, 6-06, 6-WSM, 250-3000AI, 270, 7-08, 7RM, 30BR, 308, 30-06, 375 H&H, 444 Marlin, 450BM, 458WM
Slowpoke had some excellent comments in his posts.
Your vertical stringing was probably due to not preloading the bipod legs…and them sliding back on the hood shows up a vertical on target.
Thanks to all of you for the advice and suggestions. I'm headed out again Saturday . This time I won't be using the dodge for a bench. Ill work up more with the varget amax combo, as was suggested. More target pictures to come.this is a 3 shot group with cbc 168 bthp "sniper ammo" at 200 yards. I know it's a shooter just need to find the right recipe.
Thanks,
Josh
I think I figured out the chambering issue I was having. I was using a lee shell holder and rcbs dies. I picked up a rcbs shell holder and reset the dies. Rounds are chambering fine now.
You know, I can't believe I didn't think about that. Lee holders seem to have some variance in them. I actually took all of mine (as I have several duplicates due to Lee sets coming with a holder) and measured the depth from the holder shoulder (where it contacts the die) and the base plane (where the base of the shell pushes) and found the shortest one. That became my standard or my 0.0". Then I took all the rest and put them in a precision grinder and ground them down to -.002, -.003, and so on until I hit -.010". I also engraved on the side edge of each one how far they were ground to mark them. By doing this it allowed me to have another way to adjust below a given die's minimum should the need arise. It has come in handy.
Point of that rambling story is that Lee holders can be a tad on the sloppy side when it comes to tolerances and you may have gotten a tall holder. I have not noticed that using Lee holders with any other die has ever given me issues and I have dies from Lee, Hornady, Redding, and RCBS. I also have a couple of RCBS holders and no issues there either.
Lee makes good dies and I am very happy with all of mine but you have to watch their shell holders.
204, 22 K-Hornet, 222, 223, 22-250, 22-250AI, 6BR, 243, 243AI, 6-06, 6-WSM, 250-3000AI, 270, 7-08, 7RM, 30BR, 308, 30-06, 375 H&H, 444 Marlin, 450BM, 458WM
Yea I think it is off a little ill measure it tomorrow and see how it compares to the rcbs holder. I also noticed that it doesn't fit in my rcbs hand primer. It's very tight. Which is why I bought the rcbs holders.
43 to 44.5 had the same bullet target pattern on mine i just did. new fp10 choate stock.
What brass are you using? It looks like 42.6 to 43 has the tightest group in lake city brass. I'm loading to a OAL of 2.804 +-.001.
Federal brass. Have lake city I was going to go with next. That does make sense because the LC should have heavier walls. Trying to figure out how to post pictures
Just a reminder, Lake City brass volume is about a grain to a grain and a half less volume than most commercial brass. I use it a lot myself, it's tough as hell and holds up to many reloads. I find annealing helps with LC. You'll need to remove the crimp as well unless you were lucky enough to get hold of some Match or LR cases. Good luck on your reloading....
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