I have never shot or owned a bolt action rifle so please take it easy on the flaming as I am trying to learn. I do have plenty of experience with semi-auto AR's and pistols.
I took my new rifle to the range and started the barrel break-in process but noticed that everything I shot was hard to extract. The bolt was hard to pull back to the point that I had to tug on it. I figured this is due to overpressure from the rounds but it did it with 2 different flavors of factory loaded ammo on every single round. I did have some hot loads that blew out the primers and I expected them to be hard to extract but they where no more difficult than the loads that only showed light flattening of the primers. I should mention that all rounds chambered smoothly with no hang-up or excessive pressure to lock the lugs and extraction of an unfired round was smooth as silk with no evidence of friction on the case or bullet.
When chambering the fired casings, they drop into the chamber and take a little force to lock the lugs. The casings with the blown primers take quite a bit more force to lock the lugs but I am able to lock them. Extraction of the fired cases are just as hard to extract as when I fired them.
I ended up stopping at 20 rounds through the pipe because the last 2 rounds had blown primers. I figured it would be better to stop and troubleshoot before going any further.
The rifle is a Savage 12 LRP 6.5 Creedmoor, the factory ammo is Hornady Match 6.5 Creedmoor 140 Grain A-Max and Hornady Match 6.5 Creedmoor 120 Grain A-Max. I was at an elevation of 3023ft in Tucson AZ with a mild day of 72 degrees, 16% Humidity and pressure at 29.99in. I loaned out my Crono so I have no idea as to the speed of the rounds.
I have attached some pics. The first is of the blown primer next to a slightly flattened primer. The next pics is a look at the norm that I was seeing from my cases. I also included two 100 yard targets with 3 groupings I did before I decided to stop. She is pretty accurate.
Any help on how to troubleshoot this would be appreciated.
P.S.
It was the 140gr batch that blew the primers. As mentioned this is my first time firing a bolt action so I have nothing to compare my experience to.
Pic order; Blown primer from one of the hot loads next to a slightly flattened primer. The next photo is a good look at the norm that I was seeing after firing a round.
3 groups at 100 yards
Have you measured cases before and after, have you measured the chamber depth? try grease on bolt baffel slide rails in the action. Are there any marks on the case after extraction? Blown primers seem to be a concern on a new rifle, unless the brass was weak and charge high, how far off the lands are you seating the bullets, bullets jammed can give you a spike in pressure, you should measure and work up to the lands as part of the load development?
He's shooting factory ammunition.
If both the 120 AND 140gr loads blew primers and exhibited the same pressure signs, I'd say something isn't right with the rifle.
Was the chamber and bore clean and free of oil?
BU I think he says he used some hot loads (assumed they were reloaded) that blew the primers.
He clearly stated he was using factory ammo. id recomend taking the gun, ammo and your fired cases to a good gunsmith.
1 - That is a sign of something wrong.Originally Posted by UserX
2 - See answer #1
3 - Which is precisely why you don't use Un-calibrated primers as a pressure testing system.
4 - Slippery sloap, but doesn't mean you don't have a headspace issue.
5 - Contradicts #4, unless you mean afterwards? Back to #1
6 - When you have that many signs telling you something is wrong... Don't shoot 20 rounds.
It has been hashed to death over on 6.5Creedmoor, that Hornady has once again changed their load, and over-pressure is a re-occuring theme.
I have a couple thoughts. Take your rifle to a gunsmith and have him check it out, headspace, etc.
Clean the rifle thoroughly, and try a round or two from a different manufacturer. Either way, you will get your answer.
I'm a firm believer in the theory that if it bleeds, I can kill it.
"Have you measured cases before and after, have you measured the chamber depth? - No, I didn't have any measurements before and after shooting. try grease on bolt baffel slide rails in the action. - I did this before heading to the range Are there any marks on the case after extraction? - Yes, very light swipe marks on most, the 140gr have heavy swipe marks Blown primers seem to be a concern on a new rifle, unless the brass was weak and charge high, how far off the lands are you seating the bullets, bullets jammed can give you a spike in pressure, you should measure and work up to the lands as part of the load development?" - They are factory loaded rounds
"If both the 120 AND 140gr loads blew primers and exhibited the same pressure signs, I'd say something isn't right with the rifle."
I had the problem with the primers blowing with the 140gr ammo. I shot the 120gr ammo with no or slight ejector marks and no blown primers but the bolt was stiff and hard to eject and the primers are slightly flattened but nothing major.
"Was the chamber and bore clean and free of oil?"
Yes
"BU I think he says he used some hot loads (assumed they were reloaded) that blew the primers."
They are factory loads that I assumed are hot because of the blown primer and nasty ejector mark
"He clearly stated he was using factory ammo. id recomend taking the gun, ammo and your fired cases to a good gunsmith."
I am looking for a good local gunsmith right now.
1 - That is a sign of something wrong. - Agreed, hence the reason I stopped once I noticed that I was blowing primers and had pretty bad ejector marks.
2 - See answer #1 - see above
3 - Which is precisely why you don't use Un-calibrated primers as a pressure testing system. - Just shooting factory ammo, I stopped once I saw the primers blowing and the heavy ejector mark
4 - Slippery sloap, but doesn't mean you don't have a headspace issue. - Working on finding a decent local gunsmith, thx
5 - Contradicts #4, unless you mean afterwards? Back to #1 - Yes, I chambered the empty casings after I fired them.
6 - When you have that many signs telling you something is wrong... Don't shoot 20 rounds. - I shot 2 rounds that blew primers and had nasty ejector marks. I shot most of my 120gr then switched to 140gr and that is when I started to have serious problems, so in actuality I only fired 2 rounds that had major problems but they all where stiff to eject.
It has been hashed to death over on 6.5Creedmoor, that Hornady has once again changed their load, and over-pressure is a re-occuring theme. - thank you, I am going to pull some apart
I have a couple thoughts. Take your rifle to a gunsmith and have him check it out, headspace, etc. - yep, working on this now
Clean the rifle thoroughly, and try a round or two from a different manufacturer. Either way, you will get your answer. - Already cleaned through and through. I will pick up some different ammo
Thank you all for the input.
Last edited by UserX; 03-01-2014 at 04:22 PM.
The batch that blew the primer and left a nasty extractor mark are at a whopping 44.1grains. I only pulled one so far but planning on pulling 5. I calibrated and verified my scale just to be absolutely positive. I have a posted the above over at the 65creedmoor forums to.
Last edited by UserX; 03-01-2014 at 03:30 PM.
OK.....But remember:
NO factory loads by weight, NO factory loads canister-grade powder, the load printed on the box is NOT what they loaded, but a suggestion to duplicate factory velocities.
The complaint of over-pressure still stands, and as I'm sure you saw on that board; is an issue.
I'm a firm believer in the theory that if it bleeds, I can kill it.
Understood, I know they measure by volume dependent on velocity, pressure, powder lot, etc. Make since to do it this way. The printing of the hand load data on the package is to give a good point to mimic the round for the most part.
I did some more checking and the 15 120gr rounds I fired have no ejector marks with slight flattening of the primer but they are all hard to eject. The remaining 5, all of the 140gr rounds, have flattened primers and extractor marks of varying degree. With the exception of the last 2 rounds I fired that had sever extractor and ejector marks and blown primers. I stopped shooting them at this point.
Thank you.
Last edited by UserX; 03-01-2014 at 05:59 PM.
I load just over 41 grains of H4350 and get 2760 ish FPS with Hornady 140 Match BTHP. The other thread on here about a 6.5 CM having blown primer issues is getting about 100 FPS more than I am. I would say there is a problem over at Hornady.
That is what I am starting to see after going through all my fired cases and comparing them. It seems that the 120gr loads are in what I would call the green zone. They have slightly flattened primers and the bolt is a bit stiff on extraction but no extractor or ejector marks. The 140gr on the other hand varies between hot and hot as hell, with blown primers, extractor and ejector marks and a stiff bolt extraction.
UserX,
step 1: give hornady a call, give them the ammo batch # etc.
step 2: check head space if you have gauges, else give savage a call.
You should not have to enlist a smith with a factory rifle and factory ammo.
newbie from gr, mi.
ok, sounds like a good plan, Thank you.
To give you a Idea, a friend of mine was loading 44 ish grains of H4350 and not getting much for pressure signs, other than the primer pockets were done after 2 firings. The primers would fall out of the right out of the pockets. He doesn't jamb the lands with his load, he jumps .015 to the lands.
So yeah, there is something very wrong. If it head spaces fine, I would think it's the ammo.
Yeah I am going to give Savage and Hornidy a call. Stockrex put things into perspective for me. Factory ammo and rifle should not be seeing this type of issue. I think I will drop this in their laps and see what they do.
I don't think anyone will admit anything but 5 will get you 20 says it is the ammo.
"And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” John 8:32 (New King James Version)
Upon closer inspection of the cases I noticed several deep gouges that run from mid case to the head on some of the rounds. All of the rounds have light gouges (scratches), some smaller in length and depth. It appears that the gouges on the casing varied from light to heavy. After further investigation I found chips, nicks or basically chunks missing in the metal of the chamber.
I also took measurements of my remaining, unfired factory ammo and they are within SAMMI spec but the measurements of the fired casings are concerning. The head and webbing of the fired round shows .003" of growth. The measurements are from the fired casings with high pressure signs and also the rounds with no pleasure signs. Both the casings are showing a .003" growth on the webbing and the head. Is this caused by an oversized chamber? I do not have the tools to measure the chamber.
I was planning on calling Savage but it appears that the need to call them is more critical then first expected. I of course will continue with checking the ammo as I have a feeling that I have a compounded issue. I will be opening a ticket with Hornady as well.
Keep in mind that this barrel has only had 20 shots through it, 5 that have signs of high pressure. I use professional cleaning gear and a quality bore guide specific to my rifle and caliber. The following pictures are of the chamber showing the chips that are located at the top of the chamber.
Last edited by UserX; 03-02-2014 at 05:51 AM.
normal growth in my Savage barrels is .002 so I don't think you are too far out, you might polish the chamber if the scratch marks are bothering you.
The scratches don't really bother me but the gouging is definitely bothering me. The chips on the edge of the chamber appear to be getting worse as I fired it. At least that is what I am guessing by what appears to be a progression from scratches to gouges.
I had no idea that .002" growth is the norm on a savage, thanks for the info.
Last edited by UserX; 03-02-2014 at 06:20 AM.
I dont know if that is the norm its just what I get and bump my brass back to. You should still call Hornady and savage.
No matter what way you look at it, blown primers on a new rifle using factory ammo is an issue.
Yea, true. Thanks
P.S.
I would like to thank everyone for their help on this issue.
Last edited by UserX; 03-02-2014 at 04:12 PM.
I think userx said he is getting .003 growth in the web/case head area ( growth in diameter not length ) and this is a place you don't want the brass to grow. It sounds like out of spec chamber or excessive headspace or both. You have to be way overpressure to blow primers and an have consistent hard extraction. I would call savage asap. I think maybe hot ammo may have exacerbated the situation but may not be the main cause. I had cases blowing primers and hard extraction (vase web growth) on excessive headspace with normal pressure rounds, re-headspaced barrel problems went away. Btw one shouldn't have chunks missing from chamber.
I for one won't use Hornady ammo. I think I posted it elsewhere when someone had a problem with pressure. The box of 270 Winchester brass I have for their 130 gr SST ammo has a MV of 3200 fps. That's a good 150 fps more than any other factory ammo I've seen to include Federal's Fusion and Winchester's Power Point ammo with the same bullet weight. Hornady's ammo crated cratering in one rifle and flattened primers in another.
My usual load for those two rifles and that bullet range from 58.5-60 gr of H4831 and regardless the primer used, none looked like they did with Hornady's ammo.
That is precisely what I was trying to say, I am getting .003" growth in diameter of the head/webbing. I have opened a ticket with Savage and will give them a call in the AM. I will also give Hornady a call as I have a feeling that you are correct and the problem is compounded by hot ammo. The chips in the chamber have me even more concerned because I have never seen this with any of my firearms.
Thanks again everyone I will post back with the resolution.
Last edited by UserX; 03-03-2014 at 05:00 AM.
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