Epoxy Bedding

[1.618]

Hey, all,

I tried searching the site multiple ways (through the site search as well as through Google) and although I'm seeing titles of threads on bedding (Bedding 101, etc.), I can't seem to find the actual threads.

To prevent rehashing a topic that's probably been discussed many times already, can anyone point me to any good threads here on this site on epoxy bedding the actions of Savage 110-style rifles?

I'm getting ready to bed my Savage 12 F Class, and would like to read up on it as much as possible before mixing mud. (I may bed an old Mauser 98 woods gun first, as a "dry run"...)

Are most folks removing their triggers before bedding? How much trouble/how risky is it to remove a target Accutrigger? My instinct is to avoid that at all costs and simply wax it good, cover it as well as possible with plastic and/or clay and/or tape and then bed the action with the trigger installed...am I being too gun-shy about that?

From what I've gathered from reading as much as I can, I get the feeling I should:
• Avoid bedding anything much aft of the rear action screw.
• Leave the tang free-floating.
• Don't bed anything forward of the front surface of the recoil lug.
• Relieve around the pillars, to make sure there's a bed of epoxy there, and to allow it to squeeze out.
• Fill any recesses in the action, barrel threads, barrel nut, etc., with clay, then tape, then wax (but use polished wax only where you need an intimate fit between action and epoxy-bedded stock).

Have I left out anything major, or made any mistakes with the above?

One thing I'm unclear on is how and how much to tighten the 3 action screws when I first put the epoxy in to harden...can anyone clarify that for me?

Thanks in advance for any help.

[missed]

There is a very good step by step on accurateshooter on the bedding process.

When I put my screws in the pillars I just snug them up and you drop the action with the pillars into the stock with the epoxy. I have always trimmed my pillars to the thickness of the stock in that area so when you install the receiver the pillars are flush with the underside of the stock. Then I do all my relief work and after the epoxy is on and you drop it back in, you will clamp it down until the pillars are flush on the underside of the stock.

I did have some epoxy flow foreward of the lug, I just relieved it afterwards

I leave the tang floating also.

I get all around the back screw but like you said keep any rear ward from there a minimum.

I only use plumbers putty and wax on the metal parts. I tape off wood parts that I dont want epoxy on (which is almost the whole stock)

I just did a new boyds tacticool DBM bedding job and it was challenging because of the pillar placement and how thin things are where the pillars go. If I do another one I am pretty sure a aluminum bedding block will get used. Or I will come up with something that will tie the bottom metal into the stock basically making the pillars part of the bottom metal.



I do pull my trigger and fill all the voids with plumbers putty. I don't want to risk any epoxy getting into the trigger.

oh what did I forget.......

[old_dood]

I just bedded my 12BR which looks like it has the same type bedding area/barrel channel as your F-class. Does yours have built in pillars? Mine did. I didn't use the actions screws while the epoxy set. I placed the barreled action in the stock with 1/4-28 posts in the action holes and used electrical tape to secure the action. I used modeling clay to keep epoxy from going where it shouldn't, specifically the area where the bolt unlocking lever goes and the area behind the third action hole and forward of the recoil lug. I removed the target accutrigger. it wasn't that hard to get in or out. I'd advise you to take good close up pictures of it before you do so. I had another rifle which used the PTA and the same trigger so that was a step I didn't have to do.

If you use the threaded posts to locate the action, make sure they're long enough to be removed from the bottom after the epoxy sets. Also, wrap some tape around the posts to help centering them within the built in pillars. Don't forget to put release agent on the posts and inside the pillars.

[1.618]

Thanks for the help, fellas.

In looking things over, I notice that it looks like the pillars don't actually touch the action when the rifle is assembled. It looks like there's maybe 1/32" or 1/64" of wood in the way. (I don't think we torque those 3 screws enough to compress the laminated wood that much.)

Shouldn't those pillars have a metal-to-metal contact with the bottom of the action? Or does the thin layer of wood there act like a spring or lock washer to keep the action screws tight?

Not sure I understand how this whole setup works, and I need to, before I go monkeying around with it...

[old_dood]

Ideally yes, the action should be resting on the top of the pillars. relieve all the wood around the pillars so the pillars are "proud" 1/16-1/8 inch then relieve the stock wood in the rest of the action area the same amount. with threaded posts in the actions holes, place the BA down in the stock. The only thing that should be touching the action is the top of the 3 pillars. Then you put tape around the barrel where the tip of the stock is. The idea being the tape holding the barrel at the same height it would be if the action were screwed down. Then you ensure there's clearance under the tang.

[1.618]

OK, between you and RP's explanations, I get it now. Thanks again.

[old_dood]

also, it goes without saying, wrap tape around the barrel nut and make sure, after you do, there's clearance underneath it. My stock has raised wood right under it and I forgot to check for clearance. see this thread http://www.savageshooters.com/showth...-should-I-redo

[squirrelsniper]

One thing I would like to mention that I always do is...
I like to drill a few shallow but angled holes (angle them in different directions) in the stock where there is plenty of stock material to do so. This allows the bedding compound to not only "stick" to the stock, but it mechanically locks the mass of bedding compound into the stock as well.

As for the trigger, personally, on most rifles I prefer to wrap the assembly in tape rather than removing the trigger. This is just kind of a personal choice about where you'd rather spend your time working. Personally, I'd rather just spend the extra time protecting the trigger assembly rather than removing and reinstalling it.

[missed]

Drilling the anchor holes is definitely a good idea I like that.

[BillPa]

Personally, I'd rather just spend the extra time protecting the trigger assembly rather than removing and reinstalling it.

I'm just the opposite. It takes me about 30 seconds or less to remove a Savage trigger and sear, Remingtons, Win 70s and etc maybe just a little longer and maybe five or so minutes to re-install them.

Bill

[jonbearman]

After doing several bedding jobs and protecting the trigger with tape,I now remove them also as I got some epoxy in one trigger and it isnt worth it.

[BaconFat]

Here's a video showing you how to remove the trigger group.



You will notice that this guy's trigger is not an accutrigger, but they are both held in place

with the single pin. Also on installation, the trigger weight spring has a little tail, for lack of

a better term, that fits into a pin hole in the action and helps position the spring in place.

edit: I added a follow-up post with a second video showing installation of the trigger group,

but I have some kind of posting limit I guess.

Here's the installation video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbZU8joKksI

[BaconFat]

And here's the installation of the trigger group.

[RP12]

Sticky ?

[1.618]

That's great stuff, thanks for posting, BaconFat. Those go on the HDD for reference.

[RP12]

Wow, hammer the sear pin through ? I think he needs to learn the right way to do that part, hammer it through ?

[1.618]

Well, I took the trigger off. It came off a bit differently than in the video...knocked out the pin holding the sear in place with a brass drift, and the sear & trigger came out as a unit. Nothing that I know of went scurrying off to the farthest reaches of the shop...

Now it's mudded up and hardening. Did not get a lot of squeeze-out...either I got real lucky on the amount or I didn't mix enough. If not, it'll be easy enough to de-blush, rough up the substrate and fill the gaps...more to come.

[old_dood]

what method did you use? threaded posts and tape to hold the action or action screws?

[1.618]

Threaded posts (cut-off machine screws with the threads "stopped" by melting with a TIG torch) to locate the BA to the stock.

To hold it together while the mud hardens, I put a long piece of 5/8" pine underneath the stock (to serve as a clamp caul/cushion) and a 1-foot long piece of 1½" x 3/16" angle (steel) on top of the Pic rail, then put a c-clamp across them and tightened it just enough to hold everything in place.

I figure that after everything is hardened, my 3 action screws will do the same thing that the C-clamp is currently doing, but since I used a piece of steel angle with the c-clamp (instead of the action screws) to clamp it, I'm confident that the receiver should not have any strange strains in it, and the receiver-bedding interface should be straightedge-straight.

If it works the way I'm hoping, I'll post up some pics ... if not, I'll probably drop the subject and get real quiet...

[BaconFat]

... Now it's mudded up and hardening. Did not get a lot of squeeze-out...either I got real lucky on the amount or I didn't mix enough. If not, it'll be easy enough to de-blush, rough up the substrate and fill the gaps...more to come.

When I did mine, I had the same results. Although I did have some ooze along the sides of the action, unknown to me at the time though was some of the dams I built with putty failed and the excess seeped out in those areas. It was easy enough to clean up with my dremel.

[1.618]

It worked great! Thanks for all the help, everyone. Pics to come.

[1.618]

You guys have been so much help, I figured I'd post up in case any other first timers in the future are thinking about epoxy bedding.

Here's a pic of the stock after I relieved all around the pillars.



The way it came from the factory, the metal tubes that the action screws go through were actually below the surface of the wood laminate. I had to use a carving gouge and chisel to dig out a lot of the wood to get a thick enough layer of epoxy in there (also drilled some holes to give the epoxy some "tooth" to adhere to). Then I got all obsessive/compulsive about making sure the tops of the pillars or action screw tubes were all in a line (had to use a Dremel on one to get them all in the same line). In hindsight, I'm not sure whether or not this actually matters. Seemed like a good idea at the time!



Here's prepping the barrelled action...here I'm putting clay into any crevices where epoxy might bind. You want to be especially careful of places where the epoxy could squeeze in and harden in a blob (like the head of a nail) where you couldn't separate the pieces even if the epoxy wasn't adhered anymore (if that makes sense). I like to think of it like a Jello mold or an ice cube tray. You don't want to have anywhere where the epoxy could "key" and prevent separation. Think "smooth curves" and "no crevices" and LOTS of wax. (I use Bowling Alley Paste Wax which has a lot of carnauba, but almost anything like that will work).



Same idea at the forward side. I filled the grooves in the barrel nut with clay, then wrapped with electrical tape. You don't need a lot here -- one or two layers should do it. Copying others on the Internet, I put tape on the forward side of the recoil lug, as well as the edges, and left the aft side of the recoil lug "naked" (except for a coat of wax). Wax everything -- tape, clay, stock, anything you don't want the gook to stick to. (That's why I buy mold release by the pound.)



Here's the main part of the receiver. Following the advice of others here and elsewhere (thanks OldDood), I bought three 1/4-28 bolts at the hardware store, cut off the heads and threaded them into the receiver to act as "locating pins" when I put the action into the mudded-up stock. (They also help prevent too much gook from squeezing out through the action screw holes.)



OK, take a breath, now go back and WAX EVERYTHING including the cut-off bolts in the action screw holes, the insides of the steel pillars (or action screw tubes), everything you could conceivably get gook onto where you don't want it to stick.

Let the wax dry, and when you're almost ready to start mixing up gook, POLISH the wax on the underside of the action. Really buff it like a congressman's shoe. The thinner this layer of wax is, the better your epoxy "bed" will match every detail of your receiver. Don't worry about getting it too thin. Getting it buffed and shiny actually makes it stick less than if you hadn't buffed and polished it.

Then make sure that your barrel will be in the right place (floating) when you make your epoxy bed, by putting some kind of shim between the barrel and the fore-end. I used two layers of electrical tape.

Now mix your mud and put them together. As I explained yesterday, I used a board and a piece of steel angle to sandwich the barrelled-action and stock together, to prevent getting any kind of strain or distortion that could be caused by using the action screws to pull them together. I don't know whether doing so would give a bad result (seems like it would take one heck of a lot of force to bend one of these receivers) but it seemed smart to err on the side of caution. So here's the way it looked.



I only tightened the c-clamp enough to hold everything in place. When gook started running out near where the trigger would be (I removed the trigger first which wasn't too scary -- smart move and thanks guys for that advice), I tilted the rifle upward to get it to run forward. I also wasn't sure I had enough gook in there to do the job, so I figured that tilting it up would fill at least the area around the recoil lug and aft of that, making it easier to fill the rest with more epoxy later. Luckily, I didn't need to:



Anyway, I used a lot of the suggestions you guys offered -- along with advice I found in other "epoxy bedding" threads out on the net -- and tried to pick and choose the methods I liked best. I really appreciate the help, and maybe somebody can pick up a thing or two from my own mistakes, one of which was almost (but not quite) panicking when things didn't want to come apart this morning. (The gook kind-of bound the "locating bolts" to the action screw tubes. Even though everything was waxed here, the only way to separate them was in shear – and there were three bolts, which made it harder.) All I have to say about that is, DON'T PANIC! They'll come apart! Take your time and if you get flummoxed, walk away. It'll still be there in one piece when you figure it out and come back.

Like I said in my OP, in my research, Google turned up a thread called "Bedding 101" or something like that here at this site, but I couldn't find it here on the site. I suspect it's probably a lot better than what I have here, but in lieu of that, here's how I did it.

Thanks again for all the help, fellas.

1.618

[sharpshooter]

Why didn't you take the safety off?

[1.618]

Why didn't you take the safety off?

Didn't know how it came off and didn't see any pressing need, since I didn't anticipate any epoxy getting on it.

It fell off when I was banging on the indexing bolts to separate the stock from the BA ... and then I didn't know how to put it back together, until RP12 told me how.

[1.618]

I like how the action screws are loose right up until they get tight, and then they're immediately rock-solid tight now.

Question: Are people using a torque wrench on bedded rifles to tighten the action screws in a consistent, repeatable way?