What length and weight bullets for the 9.25 twist barrel in the .243 Win?

[mikein]

I've been trying to get someone to tell me what the Savage engineers had in mind when they used the 9.25 twist barrel in their .243 Winchesters. I've sent emails to Savage "tech support," but have gotten no response. As a reloader, I've got 6mm bullets from 58 grain to 105 grain at my disposal, but am curious to find out what bullet length and weight the Savage engineers were trying to optimize with the 9.25 twist. Does anyone know?

[bootsmcguire]

I have a 9.25" twist 243 barrel off of a 12VLP that was rechambered to 243AI. Mine shoots the 58gr V-Max great. I am pushing them about 4000fps and they fly nice and straight. I have tried the 105 A-Max and the 100gr Seirra SPT and they shot well also.

Some people report their barrels won't stabilize the 105 and others say theirs will. I think Savage was trying to get something that would do most anything from 55 to 100, but I wonder too why the 9.25 instead of a straight 9" twist.

[mikein]

Thanks, bootsmcguire! I appreciate your coming back to me on this. Do we have any statements by Savage that the 9.25 twist was to address the stablization of a wide range of bullets? I'm perfectly content to go through my supply of bullets and powders searching for the best combination, (and, Lord knows, I've done that on many calibers!) but I thought a look inside the Savage designers' minds might give me a leg up on load development. Again, I thank you for responding to my request.

[bootsmcguire]

No official statement from Savage on why that twist was chosen if that's what you mean.

FWIW, a 58 V-Max pushed by some Varget about as fast as you can safely push it is a real fun laser beam.

[squirrelsniper]

I've run 70gr-100gr flat base spitzers with great accuracy, depending on the exact rifle/load combo of course. I've never tried anything lighter than 70gr but I don't see as it would be a problem; I've just always had 223s and 22-250s for when things needed to get that light. The 105gr and 107gr bullets are iffy, some rifle/load combos shoot great, others just okay, and some simply refuse to stabilize. Whether those long, heavy bullets work out for you seems to rely on a lot of factors and maybe just a little luck.

[mikein]

boots and squirrelsniper, thanks for the replies. boots, I was interested to hear if Savage had made an official announcement on why they shifted to a rather odd number like 9.25. As an old, retired IBMer who worked in a couple of the manufacturing plants, I know that we took engineering changes like this very seriously, and had to prove to the business that there was a legitimate business reason for doing it. I thought possibly Savage made the change to target a specific area of the bullet business, like the very heavy, long projectiles, or the lightweight, short ones. I guess they were looking for a "one twist rate fits all" solution. I will try the 58 and 65 grainers, since I have them on hand to feed my 6PPC.

[stomp442]

I think they did it for the reasons stated above. I think they knew the 10 twists of the Remingtons and other manufactures were leaving a bit to be desired from shooters that like to shoot the heavier bullets and vld style bullets. I have no problem getting the 105 Amax to shoot well in mine but the best bullet to compromise with I have found is the 95gr berger or match king. These bullets shoot beautifully in my rifle.

[mikein]

Thanks for the comeback, stomp. I'll try the 95 Bergers and Match Kings.

[fgw_in_fla]

The few .243 barrels I have seem to like anything from 55gr Nosler BT & Sierra GK to 90gr Nosler BT & everything in between. Anything beyond, like 105's, 107 VLD's or heavier went thru the target sideways. Twist was too slow I reckon & I'm not one for packing powder & sending them at mach 12.
Powder(s) of choice were IMR 4895 & 4064 for the light weights & H4831 for the 90's.

For what ever its worth to you...
Happy reloading.

[stomp442]

Elevation probably has a big part to play when it comes to shooting the heavier bullets. The local rifle range here sits exactly at 3000 feet. Bullets become more stable as elevation increases. I'm not sure what elevation your at frank but I'm going to bet that its not very far above sea level

[mikein]

Thanks for the input, fg_in_fla. Up until this deer season, I had been using 100 grain Sierra GK's and 4831SC, with excellent results in accuracy and 1 shot kills. While tuning up for this season's opener, I read about a guy who used I 4064 for his heavy bullets, so I played around with that powder combination and discovered that 36.2 grains of it gave me consistent 1/2 inch accuracy at 100 yards. The 4831SC had been providing me with 3/4 inch groups for years. So I switched powders and have collected 2 deer and 3 feral hogs, each with one shot. And, stomp, I find that elevation and temperature have an effect on bullet stabilization. Our county here in Texas has an average elevation of 2200 feet, and when I go down to the Gulf Coast and shoot, I always need to make scope adjustments to keep the same POI as I did up here in the Hill Country.

[fgw_in_fla]

Stomp - South End of Brevard County, Fl. - Elev. about 16ft. above sea level.

Mike - After several attempts with the 90gr Nosler BT's with marginal results (.8 - 1" at 100yds) I decided to finally listen to a buddy & use a little higher charge of 4831. The 44.1gr just wasn't getting it for me. When I took it up to 46.7gr of 4831 it settled them down & I was able to get them under .5. consistently.
As you may have read here, some of us are extreme examples of "Reloader's OCD & Savage Addiction." If it isn't under .3 or going thru the same hole, I can't sleep at night...
Happy OCD.

[mikein]

fgw, I'm starting get the feeling that a lot of "Savages" are a bit retentive when it comes to what you'll accept as "accuracy!" That attitude fits me just fine, thank you. I've gotten so bad that if, after I purchase a new, modern rifle, I can't coax 1/2 inch groups out of it with hand loads, I'll take it to the next big gun show, trade it in, and get something else to play around with. I accept that my old military-types will rarely give me anything much better than an inch, but the Remingtons, Winchesters, Rugers and Savages have got to produce. It's one of the reasons that, over the last 6-8 years, ALL of my new long gun purchases have been Savages. None of the others comes close to giving me the out of box accuracy I demand. It's a deadly disease, but I certainly enjoy dealing with it!

[fgw_in_fla]

The Savage Addiction hit me a few years back. Then, after I started attending the Savage Addicts Anonymous meetings here, I found I was also stricken with a severe case of Reloaders OCD.
I see guys here talk about "out of the box" accuracy pretty often but every once in a while there's one that'll drive somebody crazy.
I'm of the frame of mind - if you can't make it shoot acceptable consistent groups and you're a reloader, you ain't trying hard enough.

But that's just me.

The feature I like most is when I wear out a barrel I can do a change out in about 30 minutes.

And the addiction / OCD continues....

[mikein]

My daddy used to say, "I don't have room in my life for inaccurate guns or dull knives." While I've never had a Savage I couldn't beat into shape with endless hand loading experimentation, I have come across a few "Brand X, Y, and Z's" that just wouldn't respond to treatment.

[fgw_in_fla]

My son has a Mossberg .270 POS 100 ATR. I' told him if he doesn't get rid of it - like yesterday - I would cut his butt out of the will.

He uses it for hunting & has taken deer with it. I suspect he's going to one of those farms where they tie up the deer to a tree & let him shoot it.
I sure wouldn't hold that glorified canoe paddle near my face.

[Apache]

ROTFL!!!

You're not just a little partial are you?

[mikein]

I have had, and still have, a couple of Mossie's shotguns. And I have been very satisfied with their performance and reliability. I have no experience with their rifles, so I can't comment. Besides, I'm too busy buying Savage rifles.

[fgw_in_fla]

ROTFL!!!

You're not just a little partial are you?

What?....
Have you ever shot one or more importantly, had one apart. It truly is junk.

Mossberg shotguns are a different story. I like my Mossy's. The long barrel 835 will leave a nasty black & blue if you don't hold on tight & the short barrel "door breacher" is nasty little mother.

Easy to repair. Easy to find parts. No problem there but that ATR series is junk.

[fgw_in_fla]

How the heck did we end up on Mossbergs & junk from starting with .243's & 1 in 9.25 barrels?.....

One of us has ADD along with Savage addiction & reloader's OCD.

Now we have to have another support group. Do we have Wednesdays open?

[MacDR]

Back to the original subject . Berger bullets has a stability calculator on their website that may help explain why the 9.25 twist rate. Punch in the available bullet specs for the .243 and I think you will see this twist has good coverage.

[mikein]

MacDR, yesterday I ran 10 of my bullets through the Sg calculator, from 58 to 100 grains. Two of the 100 grainers did well (I define "well" as scoring between 1.4 and 2.0 on the stability scale); the rest of them bounced all over the place, from the high 2.5's to a low of 1.2. Having used the stability factor many times before, on many different bullets, I have concluded that it is a good place to start, but is not necessarily the final word on bullet selection, since there are so many other variables to consider. I have a lot of "pet loads" that don't fall within the recommended Sg range. There's a lot more to ballistics that I may NEVER know, and even the professional ballistic folks say it's part science and part magic!

[mikein]

Guess what, gang? I just got a response from Savage! They recommend the 70 grain Nosler BT, at least in factory fodder. Here's the reply:

Debra Roberts (Savage Arms, Inc)
Dec 06 09:18 am (EST)
Hi Mike,
You are correct. Our engineers recommend 70 grain – Federal Nosler Ballistic Tip
thank you

Now if we could figure out what powder and primer Federal uses. . .

[fgw_in_fla]

Cool.
I use a lot of 70's in Nosler BT and Sierra MK.

Good stuff.

[mikein]

I've just spent the last half hour trying to find a box of these bullets to order; nobody seems to have them! I then tried to order a box or two of the factory ammo; nobody seems to have them! Frustrating!!