Savage 93 22 mag magazine fit / function issues

[Westcliffe01]

I have to admit, now that I have my 93BTVS rimfire rifle in my hands, I feel rather like a fool...

I need an accurate 22 mag rifle for night coyote hunting. I previously bought a CZ 512 in 22mag and it was a disapointment. It was a 5" gun at 100 yards regardless of the ammo. Being a semi auto and having a seperate for and rear stock, I figured that there was probably not much that could be done to improve it. It also had a light profile barrel.

So I watched a bunch of you tube videos on people who seemed very satisfied with their model 93's then went ahead and got mine with its laminate stock and stainless steel barrel. I ordered 2 10 round magazines at the same time to go with the factory supplied 5 rounder.

When the rifle arrived and I tried fitting the magazines, I was amazed by the amount of slop. The magazines only seem to be controlled only in the downward direction by the catch. The magazine can rise about 1/10" when the bolt is pulled back and can be twisted left and right about 1/16" each way. This concerned me greatly since variability in mag position never bodes well for reliable feeding in any weapon I have owned.

Yesterday was the first time I had it out, after close of deer firearm season. It was a horror. The magazines would not feed on about every second round and it shot a "best" group of about 3" at 75 yards..... As a sanity check, I checked my 243 AI at 160 and 320 yards and it was dead on, then I shot a 3 shot group with a 308 with the identical 6x Weaver Classic K scope as the savage was wearing 2.5" at 320 yards.

So with a sporter 308 I shot a better group at 320 yards than I could get from the model 93 at 75 yards ?

All groups were shot from a bipod, seated position with my back resting against the side of my truck, so it was a good stable position. Ammo was the CCI black tip ammo. I have a bunch of it and it would suck trying to get other ammo now...

So what am I to understand about the magazine design ? The mag well appears as if it was not made for the magazine since the mag does not positive engage any feature on either the well or the action to controls its final depth or rotation left to right ?

Am I missing something or do I need to "bed" one of the magazines in the well to try to take out most of the slop ?

Is the finish on all the magazines also as rough as mine, sharp edges everywhere ? Are these mags really stainless or are they plated mild steel ? If they are indeed stainless steel, I could smooth the feed area out a bit with my honing stone kit, but if plated I will end up with a re-finishing mess.

[ejk24]

The construction of the magazines as you describe is normal for the rimfires as I have owned several in the past and true they do not fit tight . I have been down this path a few times . Do all the magazines act the same way ? Are the rounds hanging up in magazines or are they catching the bottom of the chamber when the round is being fed ? Try loading up a magazine in a safe place to test for function . When cycling the bolt try pushing up and forward on the magazine to see if it will feed properly . It is quite common for the guide in the mag well to be out of alignment allowing the magazine to sit slightly off angle . I would call Savage customer service being its a new gun .

[Westcliffe01]

If I push the magazine upwards, it completely blocks forward passage of the bolt. If I twist it left or right, bolt won't move. Every rifle I have ever owned has had the magazine posiitively controlled in the axial, rotational and lateral directions. I notice that on the 22LR versions, there is a metal guide that the magazine inserts into which surely controls it better than the crap Savage provided on this rifle.

I have 2 unrelated issues: Accuracy (or lack of it) and feeding issues. I am sure that if I simply do what Savage should have done in the first place and locate the magazine properly, I can solve the feeding issues. But that is not going to help one bit with the accuracy issues.

[russ10x]

On Rimfirecentral....a guy tightened up the magazine receiver tabs in the rear. He said it helped. I am really surprised that Savage has not dealt with the problem. All the OER mags are terrible. I guess they just take that .22 shooters, by their nature, are "take the ball and run with it" type of people. We usually find our own solutions. We are our own worst enemies sometimes!!

[russ10x]

My 93R 17 shoots tacks....

[Westcliffe01]

So I adressed the magazine fitment issue last night. Removed the action from the stock so I could see what was going on and that made the problem clear.

I used a vice grip and was able to progressively adjust the rear guide lips until it fitted without rattling and had enough tension to not be slopping around up and down. Lateral guiding was improved, but if I make a replacement for their tin insert in the stock that actually has the right shape for the magazine, that will permanently solve the lateral clearance issue.

Now the magazines do not seem to create a problem with blocking the bolt anymore. I used my drum sander and dremel to remove the sharp edges at the front of the magazine. I had to file the slot at the back of the magazine guide wide enough for the latch to work, after I made the guide fit the rail snug.

So after all that, I took a look down the bore last night and about had a heart attack in that the rifling was barely visible ? Looking around, the info I found regarding rifling was at green mountain which says it is 0.219" bore and 0.224" groove diameter. So the rifling is only 2.5 thou high ? Krieger shows 0.217" / 0.222" bore/groove so 0.001" smaller, but same height for the rifling. I have had a few 223 rifles in my time and they are 0.218/0.224 so 0.003" high rifling which does not sound a whole lot different to the 22 mag.

So right now I don't know what to think regarding the bore, it certainly does not look anything like any other rifle bore I have ever seen. The bore on my DE 44 mag with its polygonal rifling was the closest in appearance, but I'm pretty sure that there is nothing exotic about the rifling in my barrel.

The crown is also crappy on my barrel, it seems to have a chamfer between the bore and the face of the crown, which I have never seen on any barrel that ever shot well. Its almost as if it is the remnant of a center drill from the turning process that was not removed during crowning. I can re-crown the barrel easy enough, but before I do that I need to know if the bore itself is good.

[russ10x]

If you have any issues, send the rifle back. Savage is good for it...but, how does it shoot? If it is all over the place, then you have issues. You will need about 500 rounds down that tube to lap it right with rimfire...

[maggie987]

I had similar mag feed issues with my new Model 93 WMR. Maybe not a the best answer, but try loading the mag with the bolt open. What I found is if you had 5 in the mag, and you snapped it up with the bolt closed, it would push the nose of the bullet down at the wrong angle, so it would feed correctly when you opened the bolt to load a bullet. It also seems like when this happens, the bullets get stuck in the mag and won't them to feed inside the mag correctly.
I have 2 5 rounds Savage mags, and they both are similar. I haven't had a chance to shoot much because of the ammo shortage.

Not a great answer, but it may help.

[Westcliffe01]

Is there anyone on this forum in SE MI who might be interested in trading a couple of boxes of 40 or 50gr rounds in 22WMR for 30gr CCI's ? I have plenty of the 30 grain bullets, but before I return this rifle I would like to verify if heavier bullets shoot any better ?

I can imagine sending the rifle back to Savage and them saying that 3" groups from a near $500 bolt action rimfire are just fine .... Particularly after how they have handled the many model 111 Long Range "lemons" that they have shipped.

[shawnhu]

Savage recommends the Federal 50 grain jacketed hollow point for their .22 magnums. Give that a try if you can find any. They'll use the same ammo to test at the factory for 1" groups or better.

[outback andy]

Westcliffe, I found that the 30 gr Hornady v-max and the Armscor 40 gr HP give me the best accuracy.
and I really have a good tight grip on that .22 mag if I,m going to keep a grouping inside a quarter at 100 yards, the barrel jumps more then a 17hmr.

[bflee]

Bend the mag guide forward with a pair of needle nose pliers while the bolt is open. Do this a little at the time and keep checking magazine "slop". Me and my father both have a 93 and this worked on ours as well as some of my friends. It will make it snug.
As for the accuracy, I would send it back because both of ours are capable of .5 moa at 100 and will shoot a small cloverleaf at 50 with hornady's 30 gr varmint. The Winchester 30 gr will shoot accurate if it shoots, ( primer issues with this rifle, shoot fine in my pistol) and the CFO 40 gr will only group around 1.5 at 100.
Hope this helps you out!

[bflee]

Remove the mag to bend guide and reinsert to check!
I forgot to say that.

[Westcliffe01]

You can use a needle nose pliers to bend a guide that looks like it is cast or MIM and close to 1/8" thick at the base ? I ended up using a pair of vicegrip pliers to squeeze the loose guide "lips" on the back of the magazines until they fitted snug. Some I got a little too snug and had to open them up a bit. Then the slot at the back was too narrow to allow the latch beam spring to fit, so I filed that open again.

However, so far no progress getting it to shoot. The bedding seems awful, there is almost no contact between reciever and stock. Thinking about doing a comprehensive bedding job to it. As far as I know, one would not lose the warranty from a bedding job ?

[bflee]

Believe it or not it works. You can bend it with a little force.
It is definitely not cast. It will get rid of all the slop and feed problems. I have done it on several rifles, 22 mag and 17hmr. I have four different mags and all of them work great. I tried a lot of other posted "fixes" by filing, crimping and so forth and some of my mags were better and some worse. After I did this they all worked great. I just bought my fathers recently and it had slop brand new and I did this to it and got rid of it. It pushes tension on the mag forward and up and clamps it in place. It makes the mag a little snug pulling it in and out but it feeds like a champ and doesn't wiggle.

[Stockrex]

I have 3 or 4 of the 93s, all feed fine 10 round mags, I can shoot 1 inch at 50 yrds

[Westcliffe01]

I have to wonder how old the rifles are that people are satisfied with ? I get the impression that right at the time Savage introduced the Edge/Axis was when QC went to hell and people started reporting on all the issues with the model 11 also. (Barrel issues, plastic "bottom metal" and plastic box magazine). It is simply possible that Savage moved some components to China or somewhere else offshore and that since those parts have come in things are in the crapper.

I certainly got the impression that both 10 rounders I bought as well as the factor5 5 rounder were all equally loose. So that suggests that either the magazine supplier changed and was not re-qualified dimensionally, or the supplier for the magazine guide part changed and had a much looser tolerance, so that all magazines, old and new all fit way too loose to function.

I work for a company much bigger than Savage and I know exactly how these kinds of decisions are made through purchasing and often tolerances are relaxed to hit the price target that the buyer is looking for (his bonus depends on it). The CS gets to deal with the backlash for however long until the root cause and how one got there is established and corrected. Or the problem "solves itself" when customers stop buying the product....

[shawnhu]

I had the BRJ and now the BSEV and both had loose mags. The BRJ has issues with loading right off the bat, but started to ease up as time went by. I've read that the spring in the mag needed to loosen up, so I stored 5 rounds in the mag to do just that. After about 100 rounds, I had no issues, even with it loosie goosie.

[dlaboone]

+1 on the 50gr federal mine is a tackdriver with it,just wish i could find some.

[bflee]

I just could not stand that wiggle and it did have issues with first couple of bullets sometimes before the mod.

[bflee]

westcliffe01:
You haven't seen my needle nose pliers!

[billt]

Sadly finding good accuracy and function with mass marketed, cheap .22's, is getting to be like buying a winning Lotto ticket. Chances are slim to none. These guns are produced with the, "Sell 'em cheap, and stack 'em deep!", philosophy. It seems to be getting worse every year. Especially now with the demand for firearms in general increasing.

Even some of the higher grade, supposed "heirloom" .22's are being effected by this. Take a look at this video of the crappy workmanship on this Marlin Golden 39-A, as it looked straight from the box. That gun never should have left the factory in that condition. How hard is it to check for proper wood to metal fit in a rifle? They would rather spend the 2 minutes putting it in the box, and move on to the next one.

Fortunately I have enough .22's, and my Marlin 39-A was purchased 15 years ago, and is beautiful. But if I were going to buy a rimfire rifle today, I would go with a bolt action from CZ. Most every one that I've seen exhibits great workmanship and accuracy. They run a little more, but as a general rule they don't come with all the headaches attached. Guns are one of the last bastions of durable goods. It's a shame to see production of them descend to this level.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hi79kO51R4U

[bflee]

I could not be happier with my model 93 22wmr. I can shoot under 1" at 100 consistently and it functions flawlessly after a little work. I would put it against any other 22 wmr out there and would have a lot more money for ammo left. I know all of them are not like that though. I just bought one for my father for Christmas for 250 dollars brand new. I hope his shoots as well as mine!

[RP12]

My 93R 17 shoots tacks....

It is almost tax season. LOL!

[owenp]

I love my 93 fvss but I wish it had the same trigger my b.mag has the 93's trigger is far too heavy.
With remington premier ammo it will hit a survey stake at 100 yards all day long, with winchester supreme I would be happy to hit a pop can consistently at that distance. I also have to mention that the winchester had many misfires the other brands had none.
My factory magazine rattles lots but works fine so far.