12 BTCSS .223 Great Groups that Go Bad... Need Help Figuring Out.

[FishinFool]

Strange Things goin' on here...





All 3 groups (5 rnds Total per.) start with bug-holes then 5th shot goes left 1/2"...and Next 5 rounds are a .7" -.8" group...Each Time.

I can "call" 1 of those that wrecked the 0.148" group, (but not that far off) but I know sight-picture and trigger-control, etc. were as good as the pictured groups when things went to .7"-.8"

These loads were Hand Trickled to a Digital Hornady scale and then Beam-Scale confirmed to +- 0.05 grains before charging. Brass is all FL sized, trimmed, and seating done with Forster BR die. Essentially Zero Run-Out with this fantastic die. Bullets were 69 SMK's seated to 2.30 - 2.305 OAL on the smallest and 2.345 on the other two groups. Ogive-length was checked for consist. with caliper tool. Powder is VV-N135 and primers Rem. BR-SR. Short of turning the necks it doesn't get much more accuracy-anal that that.

Bore was not scrubbed recently as I shoot about 200 before "Real" cleaning. Usually 2-3 Hopes patches and then dry bore before case. Prob. about 150 rnds. into that cycle. Gun is a Bone-Stock, Thumb-Hole, Savage (BTCSS) .223 with 36x Fixed "T36". I can see very precisely on the paper at 100 yds. Everything is Tight as it should be.

I just have a hard time swallowing my hold and breathing-trigger work going to pot almost "Mechanically Cyclical" like this. So many of the shots in the .7-.8 groups (another 30 rnds.) both before & after the 3 groups above "felt" just as good as the first 4 shots in the 0.148...?

I am thinking that glass-bedding and aluminum pillars would do away with this strange behavior?

What about Heat of barrel? I never let it get too hot to put a hand on but it will get pretty warm below that level.

Lastly, temp 75, wind 5-8 mph, 100 yds between 20 Ft. berms all the way down with lots of trees on top...Essentially zero wind effect on that light a day at only 100, I think.

OK, Time for the Gun-Doctors to take over here and let me know if you think I just SUCK, or if there may be something to this "Gun-Change Rhythm" that a good Epoxy & Pillar job might cure.

Standing-By and Eager as the Devil to Hear ALL..

Steve D.

[243LPR]

Sounds like barrel heat or bedding? Is this a heavy barrel?

[tomme boy]

Save the brass to the side that does this. Don't reload them any more if it keeps happening.

[dcloco]

I am with tomme boy.

Are you neck turning brass? I am wondering about consistent bullet tension as well.

[Patch700]

One tool that you could use to keep a handle on what the barrel temps are is an infrared heat gun... This won't necessarily help you with the second group (as your first group would be more or less be considered cold) but it would help for the third and succeeding groups as far as waiting for the barrel to cool until it was the same temp as when you started your second group. That would possibly rule out a possible heat soak issue. This is assuming you've not the time to wait between groups to let barrel to completely cool.

Most likely a bedding issue? Either way , at least your flyers are consistent Good luck

[wlleven]

Strange Things goin' on here...





All 3 groups (5 rnds Total per.) start with bug-holes then 5th shot goes left 1/2"...and Next 5 rounds are a .7" -.8" group...Each Time.

I can "call" 1 of those that wrecked the 0.148" group, (but not that far off) but I know sight-picture and trigger-control, etc. were as good as the pictured groups when things went to .7"-.8"

These loads were Hand Trickled to a Digital Hornady scale and then Beam-Scale confirmed to +- 0.05 grains before charging. Brass is all FL sized, trimmed, and seating done with Forster BR die. Essentially Zero Run-Out with this fantastic die. Bullets were 69 SMK's seated to 2.30 - 2.305 OAL on the smallest and 2.345 on the other two groups. Ogive-length was checked for consist. with caliper tool. Powder is VV-N135 and primers Rem. BR-SR. Short of turning the necks it doesn't get much more accuracy-anal that that.

Bore was not scrubbed recently as I shoot about 200 before "Real" cleaning. Usually 2-3 Hopes patches and then dry bore before case. Prob. about 150 rnds. into that cycle. Gun is a Bone-Stock, Thumb-Hole, Savage (BTCSS) .223 with 36x Fixed "T36". I can see very precisely on the paper at 100 yds. Everything is Tight as it should be.

I just have a hard time swallowing my hold and breathing-trigger work going to pot almost "Mechanically Cyclical" like this. So many of the shots in the .7-.8 groups (another 30 rnds.) both before & after the 3 groups above "felt" just as good as the first 4 shots in the 0.148...?

I am thinking that glass-bedding and aluminum pillars would do away with this strange behavior?

What about Heat of barrel? I never let it get too hot to put a hand on but it will get pretty warm below that level.

Lastly, temp 75, wind 5-8 mph, 100 yds between 20 Ft. berms all the way down with lots of trees on top...Essentially zero wind effect on that light a day at only 100, I think.

OK, Time for the Gun-Doctors to take over here and let me know if you think I just SUCK, or if there may be something to this "Gun-Change Rhythm" that a good Epoxy & Pillar job might cure.

Standing-By and Eager as the Devil to Hear ALL..

Steve D.

Is it always on the 5th shot ?

I only thing I can think of is either it is a gun bedding issue or ..... what setting do you have your parallax in your scope set at.

I was shooting a Leupold 3.5-10 Vari-x III and was getting inconsistency... it was becase of parallax error. On the last shot you may be shifting your head a bit.

Folk don't realize it but parallax is a huge deal.

In your case it may not be, but just throwing it out there.

IMHO, it does sound like the possibility of a bedding issue.


wll

[Dennis]

Folk don't realize it but parallax is a huge deal.

Above is true with many other possibilities. I hope you find the problem pretty quick and post it. I wish I had suggestions, I will pass this on to some friends and see what they think.

Dennis

[jbjh]

Have you had anyone else who is good behind the trigger, try your gun? That could remove you as a variable.

[FishinFool]

Hello Gang and thanks for all your input.

Patch700: I will try the IR Temp Gun as I've got a good one in the toolbox. This is something another guy I know (not on forum) who is an Hi-Master class HP shooter mentioned. I didn't think the temp thing could start throwing things around as much as this (if it is temp.)

Is there a Known Good Temp Range to keep a stainless varmint barrel within? Gun has the factory Savage 26", 0.82" at muzzle, fluted barrel.

jbjh: I may have 1 or 2 guys at the range who I think can shoot solid groups. I will try to get them on the gun in the next few weeks if I can.

Thanks and keep any comments coming.

Steve

[Txhillbilly]

Are you loading the rounds 1 at a time,or do you load the rifle with 5 rounds?
If your loading the rifle magazine up,the 5th round could be coming out of the magazine/follower weird,and then the bullet may get slightly damaged going into the chamber.
My older Model 12 was doing the same thing a few years ago. I tweaked the feed lips on the magazine,and the problem stopped. It only did this when I loaded up the magazine,that's how I narrowed the problem down.

[FishinFool]

Hi Txhillbilly,

I just single-load each round.

When I put that much fuss into a hand-load's weighing, seating depths, etc. I usually won't chance it with a mag. feed. Next time to range going to pay attention to barrel temp. Will try shooting "normal rate" and see what temp that flyer & group deterioration happens. I suspect my rate of fire of a round every 1-2 minutes for 15 round strings may be screwing things up.

If info from IR temp gun does not support this suspicion then it will be time to grind-out the stock and get some epoxy goo and aluminum pillars.

Steve

[concealed carry]

Hey Steve: First suggestion, let another good shooter shoot the gun and see what happens. That will tell you if it's you or the gun. Second suggestion. You may want to try neck sizing only and bumping the shoulder rather than full length sizing. At 100 yds. your 5th shot should be in there with the others. Remember the old saying, 3 shots determines the load, 5 determines the shooter. How did you break in the barrel? Just a few suggestions. I have a Savage Model 12 BTCSS in 22-250. Prior to neck sizing and bumping the shoulders I was having the same problem. Went to Forester dies and all straightened out. My gun will now shoot dimes at 200yds on a regular basis with no mirage or wind using only a Harris bi-pod and back bag. Keep me posted.

[FishinFool]

Hello C-C,

I will definitely get another guy I trust to put some down the pipe. Break-In was done carefully with the shoot, clean drill for the first 20 and then after 3 shots for the next 24 rounds.

Bore does not get very dirty and cleans easily. As I mentioned earlier, I just run 2-3 patches wet and then dry the bore in between range session until I get to about 200 for a real serious clean. When gun gets put away there is still some fouling in the bore but not much. Gun definitely takes 20-30 shots to get back in that happy-groove after a serious scrubbing.

I use a Forster BR seater with the spring loaded sleeve that follows the bullet up and measurements have shown the runout is almost Zero...

Will stay at it and let you guys know how it goes.

I like the "3 determines the load and 5 the shooter"...Ouch!

[MrMajestic]

When you get all the mechanicals of the rifle straightened out the "rule of thumb" is powder quantity to reduce vertical and seating depth for horizontal.

[concealed carry]

Fishing Fool: You barrel break-in seems good since the gun cleans easily. When it cleans easily you have broken in the barrel right. My cleaning method differs some. It's as follows.
After shooting:
I always use a bore guide: (Sinclair has them)
1. 3 wet patches soaked in shooters choice and Kroil mixture.--80% shooters choice, 20% Kroil
2. Wet brush with same mixture 4 full strokes leaving muzzle each time and returning to breach each time.
3. 3 wet patches again.
4. Wet brush once again in the same manner as above.
5. Wet patch until no signs of powder residue show on patch.
I leave the barrel wet with the shooters choice and Kroil. (I find it lubricates the barrel nicely while sitting.
When returning to the range I simply dry patch the barrel with 3 or 4 patches and then shoot.

I never do a deep cleaning and find with the above method my gun only required 3 to 4 fouling shots to come in nicely.
After about 30 shots the accuracy seems to start to fall off alittle.

Many of my bench guns and my 22-250 seem to like to shoot alittle dirty. When you say 20 to 30 shots to start to get into your happy grove It appears your gun might like to shoot a little dirty too. Twenty to thirty shots to get it to shoot right again is an astronomical number. You might want to consider backing off on the deep deep cleaning. Most bench guns 1 to 4 fouling shots is all that is required to get into that grove again. My Savage Model 12 is the same way and only required 3 to 4 fouling shots with the above cleaning method.

I agree totally with your assessment of the Forster BR seater. That's what I use and it can't be beat. I also have the Forster neck sizing and bump die all in one and that is much better than full length sizing. Much better accuracy as well as much longer life of your brass.

When I was full length sizing I was having the same problem your having and the neck sizing and bumping eliminated that. You might want to consider that.
You put a smile on my face with your OUCH comment: I too have screwed up good groups of 3 or 4 shots and think to myself (3 tests the load-5 tests the shooter) and realize it's not the gun--but me the driver that screwed up. I'm 67yrs old and a past bench-rest shooter that has now decided that rather than be like a dog chasing it's tail, I'll relax and try to get the best I can out of a factory gun and only shoot friendly competition with friends. You on the other hand seem to be headed in the other direction with your shooting. Your very detailed and that's what it takes to become a good bench-rest shooter. Then when you get that all figured out you learn to shoot in all kinds of wind and mirage. It's also a mind game and concentration is a must even as 50 guns are going off side of you. I really enjoyed Precision Shooting magazine and you might also. It's pretty much about bench guns but all the same principles apply to factory guns. If you didn't get into bench shooting you could apply the principles learned there to your factory gun.

I'm amazed at the accuracy I'm getting WITH-OUT using Lupa brass, Federal lg.rifle match primers or competition flat based bullets.
All guns are different but here is what I am using.
Winchester Brass
Federal lg rifle primers--NOT MATCH GRADE
Sierra 50 grain Blitzking boat-tail bullets
IMR 4064 34.5 grains
I'm seated just touching the lands

I'm not turning the necks but I am very careful about brass length and weighing the bullets as well as seating depth.
Neck tension is critical---as your brass is shot--some more than others--you'll see and feel your neck tension change.

I sort that as I'm reloading and only shoot the same neck tensions together. Not doing so will give you fliers like you and I have both had happen.

You've got a great gun and patience and I'm confident you'll bond together and be very happy with your groups as I have become.
Hope I have given you some food for thought.
My best,
Doug

[thermaler]

Boy--to my rather limited way of thinking the odds of getting a gun to consistently shoot a flier at every 5th shot seems astronomical assuming your ammo is more or less uniformly produced and it "returns" to normal grouping during the same session, especially if you eliminate temperature variations as a possible cause. Maybe by the fourth shot everyone else at the range has stopped shooting to watch you with jaws dropped and that is throwing your concentration? : )

[concealed carry]

thermaler: I sense a little bit of jealousy in your return comment. You hit the nail on the head with you limited way of thinking. Temperature variations won't throw a 5th shot when their shot in succession, unless you expect a 40 degree temperature variation in the time it takes you to shoot 5 shots. Do you normally shoot 4 in the summer and your 5th in Dec.? May-be you should concentrate more on your shooting than making ridiculous comments on this form.

[thermaler]

thermaler: I sense a little bit of jealousy in your return comment. You hit the nail on the head with you limited way of thinking. Temperature variations won't throw a 5th shot when their shot in succession, unless you expect a 40 degree temperature variation in the time it takes you to shoot 5 shots. Do you normally shoot 4 in the summer and your 5th in Dec.? May-be you should concentrate more on your shooting than making ridiculous comments on this form.

I guess the implied compliment flew right over your head--if I shot 4 shot one hole groups consistently I sure would be happy. There was absolutely no malicious intent on my comment--jealous--why yeah. Put your sniper rifle away.

[concealed carry]

Well, I guess-- (I'M)-- the one with the limited way of thinking-- I apologize that I took it the wrong way. It seems that when I shoot with people they only do it once and then don't want to do it again. When you said other shooters jaws dropping open that's never happened--and I guess that's what got me.--LOL. I've been beat many times by shooters that can read mirage like you and I read a book. I enjoy shooting with shooters that are better than me, I learn from them and am always trying to learn more. Some people just get pissed if their beat and wanta go home. I guess it's a male ego thing or something but I've never had it.

Again, I am sorry for taking it wrong, and thanks for the compliment.
Keep your powder dry and good shooting.
My best,
Doug

[thermaler]

Well, I guess-- (I'M)-- the one with the limited way of thinking-- I apologize that I took it the wrong way. It seems that when I shoot with people they only do it once and then don't want to do it again. When you said other shooters jaws dropping open that's never happened--and I guess that's what got me.--LOL. I've been beat many times by shooters that can read mirage like you and I read a book. I enjoy shooting with shooters that are better than me, I learn from them and am always trying to learn more. Some people just get pissed if their beat and wanta go home. I guess it's a male ego thing or something but I've never had it.

Again, I am sorry for taking it wrong, and thanks for the compliment.
Keep your powder dry and good shooting.
My best,
Doug

And I thank you for the gracious response--I'm glad this didn't accelerate into something neither of us intended. I always try to periodically state that I'm no expert and try to avoid the appearance of being a "net-expert" because I'm not. To be honest--seeing a group of shots like the OP posted had me almost astounded--while I understand being perplexed by the 5th shot flyer (and I am VERY interested in what the ultimate cause of this is)--all I really noticed was a series of one-hole groups; and if someone at the range I shoot at walked up with targets like these I assure you my jaw would drop! : )

PS--I should have put a smiley on after my first comment--my bad.

[FishinFool]

Hello Again Gents,

C-C, thanks for the serious analysis of things you suspect are playing into this. Tell me, what Forster Neck-Sizer / bump die combo do you have? Is ther a part number or specific title to the die? I am curious about pursuing that as a possible fix. About the neck tension, I should probably anneal these cases too as they are on their 3-4 firing.

I am "only" 51 and really enjoy the precision and immediate results you can track from hand loading. To think through the loads, run the ladders, carefully roll them and see it on paper 100 or 200 yds away is really satisfying. I have not shot competitively since 13-14 yrs old and probably don't want to go in that direction now either. I cant play golf because i am just too hard on myself for results but this doesnt happen in casual shooting. I wouldnt want to wreck the "peace" and satisfaction with too much seriousness and self-criticism.

Been out of shooting until just a couple years ago, but it has really pulled me back in. Used to be an offshore sport fishing NUT, but one day the switch just turned off and haven't looked back.

3-4 hours at the range concentrating on some shootin' and shooting the bull with the gang is as relaxing and unwinding as 2 hours in a hot tub for me now.

Thermaler: Thanks for the compliment. I was really psyched as I watched the 0.148 form with the 4 bullets barely making a single .30 cal hole. I knew when I put the crosshairs back on the bull and settled down for the 5th shot "something" would kill it..... And sure enough! What really surprises me is just how capable an out of box, not-custom, production gun costing $950-$1000 can turn-in accuracy like this thing does. I am NO high-master / distinguished expert with 10,000 rounds down range in the last 1-2 years. I am just a careful hand loader of 50 at a batch of good materials with a pretty good consistency routine and about 450 rnds of practice now with this particular gun.

I also built a fancy AR along the lines of a JP that is a scary-accurate shooter for a semi-auto but not holes like this Savage makes. I probably get 800-1000 through that stick a year as well.

Just a front bag, a towel on the bench and the old crossed-arms with a fist under the heel of the stock, but really trying to observe good breathing, sight picture and trigger squeeze. Sometimes you just end up moving into a "new ground" area of your efforts coming together to produce a real advancement in your marksmanship... It's why we do it for the personal gratification...

Steve D.

[bear1944]

FishingFool,

Extreme accuracy is a quest that includes removing all the variables possible.
Besides the lengthy case prep, component selection and care in reloading I found a few things that helped me
when I was shooting competition 45years ago. I know I know - ancient history but Noahs Ark was an
awsome indoor range, just a little crowded.
1. Temp is very critical. Keep your bolt open and allow air to circulate between shots.
2. Index your rounds. Mark them and load the same every time ie. mark at 12 oclock.
3. Index your cases when you neck size them.
What this indexing does is make the inconsistencies, that may be present, be in the same place every time
you fire a shot. These inconsistencies include case neck thickness, wall thickness, alignment with the axis, etc.
I found attention to detail helped me eliminate variables and narrowed my search. In retrospect my 3rd place score of .228 isnt even
a good group today. May the wind always be at your back.
John