.308 Win. Loads Using Varget- VERY Confused

[Silvercrow1]

...and as a newer reloader, I guess it doesn't take much to confuse me.. Anyway, Using once-fired Lapua cases, CCI Large Rifle No. 200 primers, Hornady 155 Gn. Amax bullets and Varget powder, I started load development for my Hog Hunter. A buddy who reloads and the gunsmith he uses both suggested that with the type of bullet I'm using, in my gun, 43.0 Gn. of Varget should give me a great grouping. Neither of them have a similar gun; they both have AR10 varients, although their barrels are shorter as is my Hog Hunter. I pointed that out but both insisted that around 43.0 Gn. would be great.

So I loaded 25 rounds; 5 each using the above components, and 42.5 Gn.; 42.7 Gn.; 43.0 Gn.; 43.2 Gn. and 43.5 Gn. C.O.A.L. = 2.8015
At the range I mounted five "sight-in" Birchwood Casey style targets. Started out shooting groups of three rounds each; the 42.5 Gn. load (WOW!) dead center bull and .4075" center to center. I'm excited! The 42.7 Gn. load opened up to .7545" center to center, and the rest of the loads continued to open up incrementally.

JUST to make sure I'm not messing up, I shoot the two remaining 42.5 Gn. rounds at the first target, now aiming for the "small bull" upper left hand corner; they overlap each other just touching the right of that small "dot". I think to myself "COOL, I'll go home and load some from 42.5 Gn. going lower, as I'm looking for a good "Node".

I have a Speer reloading manual, and a "One Book, One Caliber" manual the latter for .308 Win. So I see in the One Book..." that Hornady, for their 155 Gn. Amax, lists starting Varget load at 35.9 Gn., Max. load at 44.9 Gn. Again good- plenty of "room" to go down. BUT THEN...

I check the rest of the manual. In the Hodgdon section, for their listed 155 Gn. Sie (Sierra?) BTHP bullet, the STARTING load is 44.0 Gn., Max. listed at 47.0 (compressed)!! Well, smack my grandmaw, kick my pet armadillo and slam the back door!! What gives?

Hornady makes the bullet I'm using. Hodgdon makes the powder. One's starting load is the other's max. Pass the bourbon...

Seriously, what do I do? I'll try to post pictures tomorrow time permitting- but the only other thing I can say is the loads "above" the 42.5 Gn. grouped right and slightly higher. Conditions were crappy; about 33 degrees F, tail winds gusting up to about 20 MPH but not steady; there were lulls in the wind- enough to get some well sighted rounds in.

I'm a pretty decent shot...so I don't think it was all me. I felt that although there was only a one grain spread that the opening up of the groups would be less dramatic. AND the variance in listed start and max. weights blows my mind.

Any help or suggestions are appreciated. I know I should have loaded more and spread the weights out more. And I know most folks shoot 5-7 rounds but I've had 3 round / triangulation drilled into me courtesy US Army, Pa. only allows 3 round loads when hunting; I've only got 2 pounds of Varget (getting more soon but not soon enough), and I don't wait minutes in between shots. I'm kinda stuck in a purgatory between hunting / real world application and target / accuracy shooting.

Thanks and sorry so long. I can't say anything succinctly
Brian

[bootsmcguire]

I too shoot the 155 A-max over Varget and found 45.0gr to be my happy spot running and average of 2840fps out of my Savage 12FV with a 26" barrel. I am getting no pressure signs at all and great brass life and terrific accuracy.

I have seen many different min-max recommendations for Varget and 150-155gr bullets. I would venture to guess that bullet construction has a fair amount to do with it, also bearing surface, and a variety of other factors, but yes it has struck me as strange as well.

I would say that you found your lower node with your 42.5gr load and would keep working up if you desire more velocity. if you are happy with that load then I would go ahead and keep that charge and start playing with your OAL.

Good luck and Good shooting.

[Jetpig]

Get use to all the variables in the information. I have seen an 8 grain difference between the powder manufacturer's max and the loading manual max in some of the stuff I did. I contacted Sierra about it, guy said some combiations are not what he termed as throughly tested and it is more than acceptable to exceed "their" published maximums as long as you do the standard work-up and identify pressure signs. Sounds like you did right and found your sweet spot. Bullet bearing surface is one component but the biggest factor is that every barrel is different.

[Silvercrow1]

THANKS Boots and Jetpig. So, I'm guessing bearing surface has to do with length of bullets? ; by the same token longer bullets=more weight..and of course bullet configuration (pointier bullets could, at least in theory, be loaded closer to the lands due to the shape / style of the "ogive" ?).

Whew- this is some very cool and very intricate stuff- I want to learn all I can and it's also cool to me that I can reload, shoot and learn all at the same time. Only bummer is limited spending and the oft times lack of components...
Brian

[missed]

Bullet seating depths are the next thing to play with, having a bullet seating depth gauge measure your gun and bullet combination different bullets will have different shapes and will sit into the rifling different. I run off the powder manufactures load data the majority of the time.

[pitsnipe]

Were they using the same brass in their loading specs? As I have found, one will use Win brass, another, Nosler manual for example, will use Nosler brass. All brass isn't the same capacity either. That can change the charge weight. Turn one loaded at 95% to a compressed load in another. Both loaded to the same OAL. I know.......lots of variables. Gotta love re loadin. Specially when you DO find that SWEET SPOT! Good luck.


Snipe

[Silvercrow1]

Bullet seating depths are the next thing to play with, having a bullet seating depth gauge measure your gun and bullet combination different bullets will have different shapes and will sit into the rifling different. I run off the powder manufactures load data the majority of the time.

Hey Missed- so what you're saying is you go off of the powder manu. C.O.A.L? I had gone off of the bullet manu. seating. I need to get a gauge; meantime I have a print out from this forum, from a while ago, explaining how to do it with an inert case / bullet, and I recall the poster used a dry erase marker to tell when the bullet was touching the lands/groves and where..

You guys are right- it IS A RUSH! I love it! Brian

[Silvercrow1]

Were they using the same brass in their loading specs? As I have found, one will use Win brass, another, Nosler manual for example, will use Nosler brass. All brass isn't the same capacity either. That can change the charge weight. Turn one loaded at 95% to a compressed load in another. Both loaded to the same OAL. I know.......lots of variables. Gotta love re loadin. Specially when you DO find that SWEET SPOT! Good luck.


Snipe

Thanks Snipe! I noticed the diff. between Lapua and the LC brass- slightly different lengths (all under "trim-to" at this point) AND although I'm not near 100 % fill or over, I always check the cases visually in addition to weighing each powder throw. Slight differences in powder levels within the cases. Did I mention I LOVE THIS STUFF! I wish I'd started sooner.....like 30 years ago! Brian

[Texas Solo]

I always use the powder mfg. data to start loads. Hodgdon data for a 155gr .308 says 44.0 - 47.0. Your rifle might like the lighter load, and if you're happy with the FPS, then you're 95% done. I would definitely invest in an OAL gauge and comparator. Amazing stuff can be discovered with their use. When I try 3 or 4 different bullets, by weight or mfg., I get 3 or 4 different CBTO, (cartridge base to ogive) That's the important thing to know....how far is the bullet jumping. I load to that figure minus .005" to start. I don't know, or care, what the OAL is. As long as all my loads are jumping the same amount, the OAL's will all be different. My CBTO changes .010" - .020" from one bullet brand to the next, but their all jumping the same .005".

[JCalhoun]

I'll secong going with the Hodgdon load data. There is very little difference bullet wise so start at the minimum and work towards the maximum checking for over pressure as you go.

I'd be wary of running lighter than minimum loads. If you do it, always make sure the bullet leaves the bore before taking another shot. H4895 and Ramshot TAC also work well with the 20 in barrels.

[Code4]

That is the powder charge I used under a Woodleigh 165 PPSN to hunt in Africa and pressures were mild.

Be glad you have a very accurate load. Don't get hung up with minutia.

[Silvercrow1]

I always use the powder mfg. data to start loads. Hodgdon data for a 155gr .308 says 44.0 - 47.0. Your rifle might like the lighter load, and if you're happy with the FPS, then you're 95% done. I would definitely invest in an OAL gauge and comparator. Amazing stuff can be discovered with their use. When I try 3 or 4 different bullets, by weight or mfg., I get 3 or 4 different CBTO, (cartridge base to ogive) That's the important thing to know....how far is the bullet jumping. I load to that figure minus .005" to start. I don't know, or care, what the OAL is. As long as all my loads are jumping the same amount, the OAL's will all be different. My CBTO changes .010" - .020" from one bullet brand to the next, but their all jumping the same .005".

I will be looking into getting a comparator and OAL gauge. I'd imagine Brownells, Natchez etc. would carry them? I see much more research in my future. Brian

[Silvercrow1]

I'll secong going with the Hodgdon load data. There is very little difference bullet wise so start at the minimum and work towards the maximum checking for over pressure as you go.

I'd be wary of running lighter than minimum loads. If you do it, always make sure the bullet leaves the bore before taking another shot. H4895 and Ramshot TAC also work well with the 20 in barrels.

I hear you! I didn't think I was running under because I was going by Hornady's suggested start / max. I'd have never dreamed that between them and Hodgdon there'd be a grand canyon of a difference. Of course now I wish I had a chrono...

So truthfully; this never ends does it? Just like my other passion- guitars..you taste a little of the better, search for the best and then it becomes a BEAST! Oh well, what a way to go!

Brian

[Silvercrow1]

That is the powder charge I used under a Woodleigh 165 PPSN to hunt in Africa and pressures were mild.

Be glad you have a very accurate load. Don't get hung up with minutia.

Hey Code4 (in my last LE agency that meant "Everything under control" !) I am happy with the load..this is all so new, surprising and exciting to me. And I always have to do the very best I can and learn all I can about any of my obsess...er...I mean passions LOL!

AFRICA! Man I'd love to hear those stories! Got any posted anywhere?
Brian

[darkker]

Hodgdon doesn't make any powder, but yes they sell it, so that is a better starting place. The "one load" book probably has data from prior to Hodgy switching suppliers.
Pitsnipe worded his post a little poorly I think, but is on the right track.
Brass Volume is what is important, not because it changes the weight, the different volume can change the burning rate of the powder.

The thing to remember about "load data" regardless where it comes from:
ADI(and most everyone else) extruded powders have a 5-8% nominal burning rate variance. Meaning 10-16% difference between lots. So what lot does the data use, and what do you use? See the importance? Not all dies size to the same dimensions. Different dimensions give different volumes; gives different burning rates. Same with chambers, barrels, etc.

[JW]

Quote:
So truthfully; this never ends does it? Just like my other passion- guitars..you taste a little of the better, search for the best and then it becomes a BEAST! Oh well, what a way to go!

So true! when I began this venture of shooting/reloading a very dear friend who is in his eighties now and one that I go to for answers even now,
told me: there is no end to it, you can ride it until you decide to get off but there is always something better, faster, more accurate etc. LOL ( he reminds me of this statement quite often)

When I am trying to find a load for a new rifle I do as you and look at several manuals and load 3 each of powder charges usually from listed min to max charge If there is a vast difference in the ranges listed in the manuals, I do not get hung up on it
I tend to stay with the powder data comparing that to the bullet manufacturer data
I have noticed that the Hornady manual has quite lower start loads compared to my other manuals
Just work up to the max load. checking for pressure signs as you go up
I would check for pressure signs on the lower end loads also
If your rifle is like all of mine it is going to shoot the most accurate below the max charge
There is usually a low charge node that will be accurate and a high charge that will be accurate ( at least in my experience, with one being just a little more accurate)
Which one you use will depend on your application
I hope this helps
Jack

[Code4]

Hey Code4 (in my last LE agency that meant "Everything under control" !)

AFRICA! Man I'd love to hear those stories! Got any posted anywhere?
Brian

I'm an Australian Paramedic and Code 4 means 'Dead on Arrival' (The Patient). As an emergency services person, you will appreciate the dark humour.

Africa. Yes I have reports posted, however not on this forum (yet) and I believe it is bad form to cross post.

Everyone needs to do Africa at least once.

[mag41vance]

I too shoot the 155 A-max over Varget and found 45.0gr to be my happy spot running and average of 2840fps out of my Savage 12FV with a 26" barrel. I am getting no pressure signs at all and great brass life and terrific accuracy.

I have seen many different min-max recommendations for Varget and 150-155gr bullets. I would venture to guess that bullet construction has a fair amount to do with it, also bearing surface, and a variety of other factors, but yes it has struck me as strange as well.

I would say that you found your lower node with your 42.5gr load and would keep working up if you desire more velocity. if you are happy with that load then I would go ahead and keep that charge and start playing with your OAL.

Good luck and Good shooting.

I concur, and to that end, I ended up at 46gr Varget with the 155 Nosler CC touching the lands. Would shoot 1 hole 5 shot groups @ 100yds.
I had a lower node that worked well, but I wanted more fps, and more fps meant tighter groups in my rig.

Silvercrow 1 FWIW- loading manuals are all published with Lawyers looking over the material. Very safe
You should pay close attention to your brass and let it tell you whats happening.

[JCalhoun]

4

Yes, I agree, everyone should do Africa at least once.

[Silvercrow1]

I concur, and to that end, I ended up at 46gr Varget with the 155 Nosler CC touching the lands. Would shoot 1 hole 5 shot groups @ 100yds.
I had a lower node that worked well, but I wanted more fps, and more fps meant tighter groups in my rig.

Silvercrow 1 FWIW- loading manuals are all published with Lawyers looking over the material. Very safe
You should pay close attention to your brass and let it tell you whats happening.

Mag41- Thanks! I am very careful and one of the things I stressed over was what an actual case looked like with various pressure problems. I saw the pictures in the ABC reloader book and other books I'm reading but was still uncertain. THEN I bought some once fired Lapua from a board member and he was kind to send some additional brass to do dummy / test rounds with. Of those additional cases, there are clearly examples with head stress / close to separation, flattened primers etc. So at least know I can see nd feel what that really looks like.

LOL I read one guy's post that said, in regard to a particular load reference that "There's enough room left in the case to fit a personal injury attorney...!"

Brian

[jerry shaw]

Sounds like you have a good start on getting the results you want.

There is a lot of variance between barrels. I have 3 Savage .308 WIN barreled rifles. I checked all three with a Hornady Lock-N-Load-OAL Gauge. It's a really handy tool. The average measurement for 155 AMAX bullets varies from 2.785 (Savage Palma) to 2.842 (Shilen Barrel) to 2.830 (Savage 12 BVSS) inches. All three guns shoot very well (under 1/2 MOA), but use different bullets (and powder) to get there. The Palma gun works with 155 AMAX over N150. The Shilen-barreled gun likes Berger 155's over Varget and the BVSS likes Hornady Zombie Max -I'm not kidding.

The point is that you can get as OCD as you like tinkering with combinations. And what works with your gun may not work with mine. I did a lot of experimentation with my Palma gun before I found what it likes best. Or, you can find something that works reasonably well - such as Zombie Maxes for the BVSS -and go on to the next thing.

So long as you keep the pressures safe, you'll be ok.

Good luck.

[390fe]

To further prove what everyone else is saying, the Hodgdon website lists 46 grains of Winchester 760 under a Sierra 175 grain hpbt as a starting point, and 49 grains as max.

I'm using Nosler Custom Competition 175 grain hpbt's and my primers are starting to flatten out with only 47 grains of Winchester 760 powder.

[mikein]

Let your rifle do the talking, now! Sounds like 42.5 grains works for your rifle, and, assuming you have no signs of over pressure, make that your base line load. Now start experimenting with different primers, different brass, and different COAL's, and don't let all the conflicting reloading data sources mess up your mind!

[Silvercrow1]

Thanks all- most helpful and interesting. I recently continued load development for the Varget / 155 AMax combo and found 44.0 grains of Varget, CCI 200 primers and Lapua brass to be a winning combination. I have to get off my fat duff and post some target pics...

So I've gone to 130 Gn. Speer HP to work up a load for varmints (I can see them little suckers blowing up now...hee hee) and since I had some H335 powder available I used it. Mistake I made was using regular rifle primers; results were pretty dismal comparatively. So I took the best of the worst and loaded some duplicates with mag. primers (Winchester). We'll see how they do...Gosh this is fun!

Brian

[jerry shaw]

My Savage Palma likes 155 grain AMAXes better than anything else. I have tried 168 AMAXes as well, but they just don't print the little groups 155s do. It does not like Sierra 155s, either 2155 or 2156, nor is it especially fond of Bergers.

It typically produces bughole groups with 44.5 to 45.0 gr of N150. You can produce similar results with similar charges of Varget. The bullets stay supersonic (barely) at 1000 yards. I use this setup in LR matches and have been very satisfied.

I have run up the charge with Varget to 47.0 grains just to convince myself that the case/bullet combination can be used. It can, but I don't recommend it.

I ordinarily start with new Win or Lapua (standard large rifle primer size) brass and use BR-2 primers. Everything gets checked on the Win brass - primer pockets trued, flash holes deburred, neck walls turned. The Lapuas just get primed and loaded. Rounds get loaded with a Redding or Forster competition die. Primers are inserted with a Sinclair priming tool. Powder is trickled for every round. This stuff is intended to be shot at 1000 yards so I treat it like every little thing matters.

You will want to check that the bullets are seated at the right length for your chamber. I have found that my Palma chamber is shorter than any other .308 barrel I own. I'll set them just so they make contact or with about 0.002 jump. The OAL for AMAX 155 bullets just touching the lands is 2.785". A berger 155 just touching the lands measures 2.895" OAL. I have another model 12 (with a Shilen bull barrel) that shoots just as well as my Palma gun. Its chamber dimensions are significantly different. The rounds that work best with one do not shoot so well in the other. So, it's hard to come to really big definitive conclusions based on sparse data. You have to check each thing for your rifle.

One of the things I've seen is that getting the Savage Palma to run the way you want it to is a series of small steps. Mine shot pretty well right away, but it has taken a lot of incremental steps to make it really shine.

And, your Palma gun is built to shot lots of rounds - as in 50+ per match. It's intended to be accurate and stay accurate over the course of all those shots. So it doesn't make sense to me to shoot a three round group and call it good. I was brought up in that same Army as you. We teach 3 rounds to zero because the Army's operations research guys found that the average Soldier zeroes about as well with three as he does with five, and three rounds is cheaper. When I test I shoot lots groups - and that requires lots of rounds.

One thing unmentioned above is barrel hygiene. A dirty or copper-lined barrel won't shoot well. BUT - that doesn't mean you should use a stainless brush and a bottle of sweet's every time you clean. I use some foaming bore cleaner, JB bore paste and Kroil along with nylon brushes from Sinclair's to keep my bore happy. Maybe a little Butch's bore shine if I'm in no particular hurry to get finished cleaning. And a couple of patches soaked with Kroil when I'm finished. Sure, I'm maybe a little gentle on it, but my barrel is happy and the rifling looks almost like new after probably 2000 rounds. It shoots as well now as it ever did.

I hope this doesn't completely suck the fun out of getting your Palma to shoot. It's a great rifle once you get it figured out. And if you don't like it and can't get it to shoot, I'll pay a whole $500 for it - sight unseen!


Your mileage may vary.

Good luck.

JS